On Aug 14, 8:21Â am, Robert Cohen
msn.com> wrote:> On Aug 14, 3:12Â am, Shrikeb...@
gmail.com wrote:
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>> On Aug 13, 8:42Â pm, Robert Cohen
msn.com> wrote:>
>>> re: illusion of harmless illegalities
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>>> Please keeep in mind: We're discussing "philosophy," not defending (or
>>> offending) ideology(ies)
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>>> The n.g. agenda is trying to determine what is truth  or reality
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>>> In this vein: The phenomena of  "crime w/o victim" is ambiguous
>>> premise or phrase or at least ill-defined
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>>> Because:
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>>> If everything is relative, then there is no separate action or element
>>> unto itself
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>>> The drinker, doper, gambler, has his/her relations to kin and others
>>> "victims"
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>>> The community is "harmed" or victimized by irresponsible, imprudent
>>> behavior
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>> Actually, assuming all of the above is true, even
>> allegedly prudent and responsible behavior will
>> have negative side-effects. Â If we get into the
>> vagueness of potential effects, every action may
>> as well be equivalent to another. Â For instance,
>> a drunk driver may accidently kill a future mass
>> murderer. Â A butterfly flapping its wings may
>> ultimately cause a big wind in Chicago.
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>> In any chaotic system, the outcome of a small
>> change is inherently unpredictable. Â Therefore,
>> every act has potential victims and potential
>> beneficiaries.
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>>> If ye smoke chains, then Medicare (national health insurance,
>>> taxpayers, social security) may well eventually have to pick-up the
>>> tres cher health problrems.
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>> Actually, there have been statistical analyses of the
>> cost of smoking to the taxpayer, and may not be
>> entirely clear, but it looks to be the case that the
>> taxpayer saves money because of the smoker. Â Old
>> age is one of the most expensive things the taxpayer
>> has to fund. Â Everyone dies, some die faster than
>> others, and get sick for longer. Â One in three smokers
>> dies of cancer, a relatively quick death. Â This save
>> Social Security as well as Medicare dollars.
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>> There are those who get chronic diseases from smoking
>> too, which somewhat offsets the savings from the quicker
>> deaths.
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>>> Though I certainly acknowledge so-called "crime" can also be
>>> economically "beneficial" to community commerce through  medical
>>> products and services
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>> That is the broken window fallacy, yes. Â But even for the most
>> deadly vice of all, it appears there is less of a broken window.
>> Old age and its chronic diseases are the most expensive broken
>> window of all.
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>>> No person is an island unto him/her self, says John Donne
>>> Sorry about that libertarian-objectivists, does not exactly say Don
>>> Adams
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>> John Stuart Mill already dealt with this objection, anyway. Â The
>> only effects we can really consider are direct effects. Â The indirect
>> effects are really unpredictable. Â If an act doesn't have a victim as
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>> direct result, anything else is idle speculation. Â After all, Karl
>> Marx's
>> speech could be considered the "cause" of tens of millions of murders.- Hide quoted text -
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>> - Show quoted text -
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> Just to let you know: I can appreciate  refutations, so I'll try to
> address them
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> This is philosophy blah blah
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>  J S Mill, imho,  mankind is  interdependent and "indirect/direct" is
> an artficial dichotomy & rationalism, though not mine
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> to be continued after oatmeal and english muffins- Hide quoted text -
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> - Show quoted text -
re: chronic smoking, drunkardness, bad behaviors
Almost everybody agrees there are some nasty personal habits that
victimize others, true?
I myself am no doctrinaire puritan or paragon of good behavior, though
this does not mean that I approve of uncivilized, irresponsibile, and
the usual anti-social, "overly-indulgent" stuff that we humans may
enjoy
"common sense" & "normatives" ain't always wrong, as much as that
rebel or non-conformist in each of us may sometimes think
yes, i am age 64, and an ole fukker
to acknowledge:
Milton Friedman & Ayn Rand & absolute, unlimited rights and personal
freedoms are about terrific theoretical ideals though seeming to me to
be lacking common cultural sense & community bourgeois normatives
