> On Aug 4, 4:05 am, chazwin
yahoo.com> wrote:>> On Aug 3, 5:02 pm,zinnic
gate.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 3, 2:31 am, "brian fletcher"
bigpond.net.au> wrote:>>
>>>> "zinnic"
gate.net> wrote in message>>
>>
>>>>> On Aug 2, 6:05 pm, "tooly"
bellsouth.net> wrote:>>>>>> "zinnic"
gate.net> wrote in message>>
>>>>>>news:1185989965.598026.160520@
k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...> On
>>>>>>Aug 1,
>>>>>> 7:37 am, "brian fletcher"
bigpond.net.au> wrote:>>>>>>>> "tooly"
bellsouth.net> wrote in message>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 31, 3:59 pm, "tooly"
bellsouth.net> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> "brian fletcher"
bigpond.net.au> wrote in message>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Any one read Richard dawkins book?...brilliant, as was
>>>>>>>>>>>> his TV
>>>>>>>>>>>> series
>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>> Root Of All Evil (He didnt want to call it that, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>> BBC
>>>>>>>>>>>> insisted.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He said evil doesnt have a root. Typical enlightened
>>>>>>>>>>>> comment of
>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>> great
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinker and educater.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He managed to put into words, what many "almost" true
>>>>>>>>>>>> believers
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> cusp of realizing.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> BOfL
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This much I do know. Atheism is a formula for
>>>>>>>>>>> HOPELESSNESS. It
>>>>>>>>>>> leaves
>>>>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>>>>> only with pecking orders.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Atheists who are higher up on their pecking order would
>>>>>>>>>>> find some
>>>>>>>>>>> worth
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> existence. A boss, an artist, a builder, teacher...anyone
>>>>>>>>>>> who has
>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>> 'right of way' in life, some felt purpose in their
>>>>>>>>>>> relationship to
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> sea
>>>>>>>>>>> of humanity in which they swim.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are 7 billion of us, and the masses linger in
>>>>>>>>>>> quagmires
>>>>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>>>>> foot
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> pyramids we cannot imagine. Few in relative number
>>>>>>>>>>> actually get
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> 'good life', from which the new nihilism is expressing
>>>>>>>>>>> itself (or
>>>>>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>>>>>> so secure in which a Richard Dawkins could broadcast his
>>>>>>>>>>> poison).
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Looking UP from the bottom, I argue it is fundamentally
>>>>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>> who carry the 'weight' of existence on their backs with
>>>>>>>>>>> little or
>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>> hope of
>>>>>>>>>>> reward, at least have some conciliation that their misery
>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>> 'value'
>>>>>>>>>>> measured in some 'higher order' they cannot see from such
>>>>>>>>>>> depths.
>>>>>>>>>>> If,
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> looking up, all one sees is the athiest...the hopelessness
>>>>>>>>>>> sinks
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>> concrete upon the heart of human motivation.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Even an ant must believe in his colony to march onward, to
>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>>>> up to
>>>>>>>>>>> the horde.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Most of you who write here, and especially those like
>>>>>>>>>>> Dawkins and
>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>> naysayers, have no real conception of hells they walk upon,
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> exist
>>>>>>>>>>> beneath them, as they, relegated in relative comfort, are
>>>>>>>>>>> themselves
>>>>>>>>>>> mired
>>>>>>>>>>> in some meaning due the auspices of their own genetic
>>>>>>>>>>> 'LUCK' to be
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> boss,
>>>>>>>>>>> the artist, the builder, teacher...anyone allowed some
>>>>>>>>>>> right of
>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> life.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Most of us are fodder and atheism is not strong enough to
>>>>>>>>>>> hold the
>>>>>>>>>>> structural seams of the pyramid together for very long.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> And when the seams burst asunder who then will raise up the
>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>> trodden? A Queen that will persuade them to joyously give
>>>>>>>>>> themselves
>>>>>>>>>> up to the horde? A Prophet who will persuade them to
>>>>>>>>>> patiently
>>>>>>>>>> accept
>>>>>>>>>> their suffering because their reward will be found in the
>>>>>>>>>> kingdom
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> heaven? A Messiah who will smite down the heathen and
>>>>>>>>>> elevate the
>>>>>>>>>> righteous and the inflicted to their proper place in
>>>>>>>>>> paradise?
>>>>>>>>>> Explain to me. Why did not some god do that in the first
>>>>>>>>>> place?
>>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>> a mortal can see that would have 'saved' a World of
>>>>>>>>>> suffering!
>>>>>>>>>>Zinnic
>>
>>>>>>>>> Fair question of course and I have an answer to it...just
>>>>>>>>> that, like
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>> many, I find it hard to 'communicate' that answer via words
>>>>>>>>> alone...by
>>>>>>>>> intellect or reason. 'STATE' is everything I keep arguing to
>>>>>>>>> deaf
>>>>>>>>> ears,
>>>>>>>>> ha. By that, I mean once a 'state' is changed, new meaning
>>>>>>>>> can be
>>>>>>>>> found
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> a function of, well, certain 'state'. Sheese, I know I sound
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>> flake trying to explain something people have tried to
>>>>>>>>> explain since
>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>> immemorial.
>>>>>>>>> Ever fall in love back when at the peak of mating? That was
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> 'state'...and at the time, I bet the world stood on it's ears
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>> Everything 'came together'. Oh, I know it passes and our
>>>>>>>>> rational
>>>>>>>>> self
>>>>>>>>> takes back over and cajoles us how foolish we were [those
>>>>>>>>> moments
>>>>>>>>> rarely
>>>>>>>>> last or turn out as we want]. But it gives us some clue that
>>>>>>>>> we are
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> granite monoliths, that we can 'change' not just our
>>>>>>>>> perception, but
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> very 'state of BEing' we become through those perceptions.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Science is one tool, and it leads us to certain 'perceptions'
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>> our state in certain ways. It is a useful state of course,
>>>>>>>>> but we
>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>> realize when it leads us astray, when our condition becomes
>>>>>>>>> so empty
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> voided of hope that it begins to violate perhaps the first
>>>>>>>>> and only
>>>>>>>>> tennant of meaning that very science suggests to us...To
>>>>>>>>> Survive.
>>>>>>>>> That
>>>>>>>>> hopelessness is indeed real today and growing like a dark
>>>>>>>>> cloud over
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> world, slowly, inexoriably...ha, like Tolkien's dark cloud of
>>>>>>>>> evil
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> arose from Mordor.
>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not a theologian and cannot argue much on the dogmatic
>>>>>>>>> scriptural
>>>>>>>>> context of religion. Too much is argued for the grace of God
>>>>>>>>> by an
>>>>>>>>> intellectual debate of 'hand me down' myths that won't cut
>>>>>>>>> wet
>>>>>>>>> tissue
>>>>>>>>> paper in the modern world. But...is that important? Their
>>>>>>>>> function
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> efficable to time and place and our mentality of eras now
>>>>>>>>> gone.
>>>>>>>>> That
>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>> mentality has expanded does not mean the funcationality is no
>>>>>>>>> longer
>>>>>>>>> needed that those myths provided us. But, erroneously, we
>>>>>>>>> rebuke
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> myth
>>>>>>>>> while not understanding fully the function, IMO. We NEED
>>>>>>>>> hope for
>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> thing.
>>
>>>>>>>>> To some who need objects to be able to believe, I suppose it
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> scary,
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> to disavow the history of the religion is to appear to
>>>>>>>>> disavow God.
>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>> yet, if one considers that the true object of all the Bible
>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>> Koran
>>>>>>>>> or any other written document people need as security
>>>>>>>>> blankets to
>>>>>>>>> justify
>>>>>>>>> a belief in God upon, does it not come down to a more simple
>>>>>>>>> notion
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> 'changing our state' through divulging new perception with
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> functional
>>>>>>>>> end of that 'certain state' [for convenience, let's just call
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> state
>>>>>>>>> the religious experience, as close to epiphony that most of
>>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>>> mortals
>>>>>>>>> will ever get].
>>
>>>>>>>>> Faith and belief, I argue, were tools...a technology of
>>>>>>>>> sorts, by
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> could maintain our 'state' of BEing in good repair...while
>>>>>>>>> keeping
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> life worthwhile, our motivations intact, our gestalts with
>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>> energy,
>>>>>>>>> and most importantly, our human relations of a healthy nature
>>>>>>>>> [ha, I
>>>>>>>>> know,
>>>>>>>>> someone will want to point to religious wars here, repressed
>>>>>>>>> sexuality
>>>>>>>>> etc....but where it really was functional was to make the
>>>>>>>>> family
>>>>>>>>> unit
>>>>>>>>> strong...the main building block of civilization].
>>
>>>>>>>>> Faith and Belief in what? We really need no object...not
>>>>>>>>> really if
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> develop our empathetic reach. It is in that empathetic reach
>>>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>>> personally find much hope and direction. But, at least for
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> poor
>>>>>>>>> brain and mind that sits in it, I need the word...the
>>>>>>>>> conceptualization
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> some symbol of higher virtue...even a pinnacle of
>>>>>>>>> possibility...upon
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> to focus all objects through. One state leads to
>>>>>>>>> another...and a
>>>>>>>>> general
>>>>>>>>> aspiration toward higher virtue is found in all things around
>>>>>>>>> you...ultimately back in 'self'. But...at least for me, I
>>>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>>>> funnel
>>>>>>>>> that symbol through my conceptualization of God. It becomes
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>> object one needs really...for it is undefinable, unrestrained
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> meaning,
>>>>>>>>> the object of all objects.
>>
>>>>>>>>> I argue we are far and away from that point in time where we
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> fully
>>>>>>>>> wean ourselves from our needed objects by which we might
>>>>>>>>> 'believe or
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> faith or reach for higher empathy and virtue'...and we still
>>>>>>>>> NEED
>>>>>>>>> God...the conceptualization as we each may uniquely divulge
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> ourselves.
>>
>>>>>>>>> I better stop here before I sound too flakey. I hope a point
>>>>>>>>> or two
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> cohesive thought gets through. State. Once certain state is
>>>>>>>>> attained
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> see, one realizes the rest didn't matter [the dogma, whatever
>>>>>>>>> paths,
>>>>>>>>> myths, rationales, delusions even...that get you to that
>>>>>>>>> state].
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>> 'object'...the aspiration, the reach, the pursuit, was a
>>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>>> 'state
>>>>>>>>> of BEing'. Anyway...my 2 cents I guess.
>>
>>>>>>>> Eloquently put Tooly.
>>
>>>>>>>> May I suggest that those "states of Be ing" are infinite, the
>>>>>>>> recognition
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> which, is based on such aspects as you have identified.Steps on
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> endless
>>>>>>>> ladder!
>>
>>>>>>> Now there's a thought. A circular ladder!. If you take the
>>>>>>> inside
>>>>>>> track you can run, like a hamster, for ever
>>
>>>>>>>> The more I have discovered that, the more I have realized that
>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>> references to "God" were convenient references to the
>>>>>>>> "unbelievable",
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> mutate (evolves) into "knowanble".
>>
>>>>>>> To 'mutate' into one who "knows" must one be over-exposed to
>>>>>>> divine/
>>>>>>> cosmic radiation? I need more evidence before I remove my
>>>>>>> aluminum
>>>>>>> foil hat!
>>
>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>>>>> By all means...always seek the evidence. There are too many
>>>>>> fuller brush
>>>>>> salesmen on this planet. The evidence in this case, is the very
>>>>>> 'state'
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> refer to. Some call it...well 'most' call it love I suppose.
>>>>>> Life would
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> a wonderful thing if we could 'sustain' this state. I don't like
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> word
>>>>>> myself, for language fails at some point....and the experience
>>>>>> become
>>>>>> transcendent to any word. But...suffice that love is the closest
>>>>>> word we
>>>>>> have. But it can be misleading when most of us understand 'love'
>>>>>> as an
>>>>>> attachment to 'objects'. Love for it's own sake is not an easy
>>>>>> thing I
>>>>>> think, but it's justification is the realization that the only
>>>>>> thing of
>>>>>> worth in this life [perhaps for all sentient being, not sure] is
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> thing
>>>>>> we call love. But that's is not said properly, for as I have come
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> understand it, this 'essence' of the word and the experience it
>>>>>> rests
>>>>>> upon
>>>>>> is actually the very 'stuff of meaning' itself. God is the better
>>>>>> vernacular, a more descriptive handle that leads one away from
>>>>>> personal
>>>>>> emotionality to a more expansive understanding of BEing.
>>
>>>>>> From only our momentary brushes with it in all it's various form
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> 'associations' to various material objects, we carry the residuals
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> eventually provide the very 'structural pathways' of right and
>>>>>> wrong,
>>>>>> eventually of law and order [at least in it's foundation]. If one
>>>>>> needs
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> totally material angle, I suppose it provides structural pathways
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> develop
>>>>>> our very nervous system. It draws us like a magnet through time.
>>
>>>>> A "loving" post from a "loving" person. This does not really
>>>>> express
>>>>> my true sentiment.The only other English word that springs to mind
>>>>> is
>>>>> empathy but still it does not fit. Perhaps it is expressed better
>>>>> in
>>>>> some other language?
>>>>> I suspect we are poles apart in temperament and viewpoint. I am
>>>>> tempted to explain myself but unfortunately., I repeat
>>>>> unfortunately,
>>>>> I will not allow myself to do so. And that for me is a major
>>>>> confession.
>>>>> I guess this last post of yours convinces me that the fulfilment
>>>>> you
>>>>> find in the meaning of "Being" is something that I, in
>>>>> recognising
>>>>> the inevitability of "not Being" , have no wish to trample on.
>>>>> In
>>>>> short, perhaps there is a right and wrong but I am convinced that I
>>>>> will never KNOW.
>>>>>Zinnic
>>
>>>> Why dont you at least allow for the possibility of knowing.?
>>
>>>> Costs nothing and is worth the bet.
>>
>>>> BOfL
>>
>>> Possiibilties are two for a penny, I deal in probabilities.
>>
>> A probability is a quantified possibility. So being a subset of
>> possibility, dealing in probabilities you will by necessity also be
>> dealing in possibilities too.
>
> Not if the probabability I am trying to deal with turns out to be
> impossible!
> Zinnic.
>
Good excuse to not look.
BOfL
