> On Mar 19, 7:03 am, "George Dance" wrote:
>> On Mar 19, 2:18 am, "Sugir Jinn"
wrote:
>>>>
>>> OB is my hero, and Jorge....
>>
>>>> On Mar 18, 2:14 am, "Dennis M. Hammes"
arvig.net> wrote:>>>>> George Dance wrote:
>>
>>>>>> That sounds like you're referring to Shakespeare, whose sonnets
>>>>>> consist entirely of quatrains and couplets; obviously another writer
>>>>>> for 'babies' in the opinion of Mr. Hammes.
>>
>>> If carbon's breath has any thought or care
>>
>> O, yes, Tom Bishop. He's a good example of what comes from listening
>> exclusively to Dennis Hammes - he comes up with one good line, and has
>> to search for 13 others, all with the appropriate end-rhymes, to set
>> it in. A needle in a haystack, as it were, or a gem in a pile of
>> turds. (Have to add that, since Dennis likes writing about turds so
>> much.) .
Better than I thought I would do. As good as the best posted here.
I studied under Dale also... You weren't here then.
>>
>
> I haven't found any "good lines" in the few poems I've read of Tom's.
Then don't read it. Hammes has noted it favorably
> I don't think that has anything to do with choice of form. I can't see
> any sincerity in his writing. Everything comes across as a pose. "Look
> at me - I don't fear death". "Look at me - I *care* about stray dogs".
> "Look at me, I have a High Artistic Purpose", "Look at me, I can write
> amusingly about birdshit", etc.
>
>
>>> Gotta... jus gotta... heh...
>>
>>>>>> Which reminds me: if you *have* to write sonnets rather than poetry,
>>>>>> why in the world choose the Petrarchan?
>>
>>> I rather like them.
>>
>> A succssful one is a pleasure to read. But look at Barrett Browning's
>> ouevre; how many of her sonnets can one remember? I'll bet, just one;
>> and just one line of that.
>
> To have successfully injected a single line into the meme-pool of
> canonical Eng Lit is a consummation devoutly to be wished (for most of
> us).
>
>
>> (Hmm, maybe I can call Barrett FAT, and get a rhyme out of it?).
>>
>>> #2 convinced me. Then I met others.
>>
>>> Didn't bother... How much time?
>>> You were /going to be/ a GREAT poet, right, wormfarmer?
>>
>> He has turned into quite the prolific dabbler, at least. And quite
>> proud of his quantity as well. At least quantity of output is
>> something to be proud of.
Quantity of money isn't bad.
It brings toys, and girls.
Quantity of poetry is funny to me. I don't even collect my own.
I need to search Google to find it.
>
> I don't think telling Tom that is such a great idea.
>
>> I'll bet, though, that even a mediocre
>> computer programmer could write a program to compose Petrarchan
>> sonnets, and exceed his output in six months' time.
>
> It wouldn't be hard in principle to write an app that strung words and
> phrases together, either at random or from a corpus, with more or less
> regular meter and end.rhymes, to any formal spec. The result, of
> course, wouldn't be "poetry".
Although I've written such code (for another reason..)
the generation of names, and other header lines.
Poetry generation was never a goal.
>
>
>>>>>> That works perfectly well in
>>>>>> Italian, where almost every word rhymes with 100 or so others - one
>>>>>> can write 14 lines of nothing but -ella, -ella, -ella (etc.) - but it
>>>>>> looks like nothing but artifice to work in that form in English. It's
>>
>>>> "100 or so" is a wild underestimate most of the time.
>>
>>> Even wilder to speculate on your income from poetry per year.
>>
>> Hey, OB is fully aware of his present limitations. There's no point
>> in flaming him.
>
> Hey, but it's fun.
Yes... Under certain conditions.
My only point is that it is a hobby. And best thought of as a hobby.
>
>>>> I came to the writing of English poetry from the writing of poetry in
>>>> Spanish (my "first language", not chronologically but in most other
>>>> respects). Spanish, Italian or almost any of the various simplified
>>>> and modernised Latins, with their inflected verb endings and reduced
>>>> number of phonemes, make rhyme a doddle - it's almost harder to avoid
>>>> it than to use it (one reason why assonance is prized in Spanish
>>>> poetry as an alternative to strict rhyme - it requires more thought).
>>
>>> Babs... This is a stud!
>>
>>>>>> almost as absurd as writing haiku in English - now and then one may
>>>>>> succeed in saying something, but only in spite of the, not because of
>>>>>> it.
>>
>>>>> I should really get my rhyming dictionary back online.
>>
>>
>> Good suggestion, for anyone here interested in writing rhymes.
>
> I'm interested in something downloadable, that I can take apart and
> reassemble to my own specs.
CMU gives away a rhyming dictionary with over 100,000 words.
(which isn't enouigh.)
I used it to write a meter analyzer in Javascript.
Worked great. A sonnet in a second. Hundred+
word lookups.
http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/cmudict
You could add to it if you wanted.
It uses 39 phonemes.
>
>
>>>> The standard (IPA-based) lists of phonemic vowels (including
>>>> diphthongs) found in most dictionaries vary between 20 and 22 for both
>>>> US and Standard Brit English (aka RP). When non-phonemic variations
>>>> are included, the number depends on the dialect and is hard to pin
>>>> down, but Shaw was probably on the right track for the English he
>>>> spoke.
>>
>>> Phonemes are interesting, and I've programmed them silly.
>>> Visemes are more interesting, etc...
>>
>>>> I wish you would put your rhyming dictionary online. I occasionally
>>>> use a Penguin RD, which ought to be good since it was computer-
>>>> generated on the basis of automatic analysis of phonetic
>>>> transcriptions in a standard dictionary, but it contains some odd
>>>> omissions and confusions, mostly based on failure to distinguish
>>>> primary and secondary stresses. Obviously a non-US user would have to
>>>> adapt it, since e.g. in Brit Eng "amassed" does NOT rhyme with
>>>> "vast" (pace Mr Dance), or at least not south of the Watford Gap.
>>
>>> Brits should be killed with an icepick in the eye.
>>
>> Doesn't scan; how about:
>> "A Brit deserves an icepick in his eye"?
>
> Ramon Mercader is 96.
Mostly a joke I have with myself.
I once had a Brit partner that did nothing.
>
>
>>>>>> No wonder OB is waging a 'constant battle against form' when he's been
>>>>>> confined by your advice to such a monstrosity. It's almost as if (to
>>>>>> use his music analogy) you've been teaching an aspiring guitarist to
>>>>>> first master the zither.
>>
>>>> For the record, I have never seen Dennis "advise" anyone to write
>>>> sonnets. He certainly didn't advise me to do so. As I said, I was
>>>> writing them in Spanish before I dared attempt any in English. Since
>>>> obviously it would be quixotic to post Spanish poems to an English-
>>>> speaking newsgroup, those never made it here.
>>
>>> Thx...
>>
>>> My first guitar was a Martin D-18. Cheapest Martin, but
>>> still a Martin. I toured the plant twice.
>>
>> Do you play anything that's been composed since the 16th century?
Beatles, GD, Cohen, Edwards pop crap...
>
> Since you ask me the same Q in a later post: my repertoire spans from
> arrangements of Provencal troubadour songs up to Beatles/Bacharach and
> stuff of my own. Not sure why you ask. Obviously, if you can't play a
> decent Robert de Visee you can't expect to be taken seriously as a
> performer (in /any/ genre). That doesn't mean you have to limit
> yourself to that stuff once you /can/ play it.
>
> There's no avoiding scales. "Graded Grails Make Finer Flower."
My fingers hurt too much any more. Physically I'm a mess, and
my mind is messed from the drugs.
I still have a genuine interest in good poetry.
My favoite is Dylan Thomas.
I came to Usenet poetry to learn poetry when I was 48.
I learned poetry to my general satisfaction. I'm 54, and
being sued for copyright infringement, and my picture stolen
for sexual harassment. The sexual harassment was LARTed.
The copyright infringement is bogus.
>
>
>>>> Never tried violin or sword (you need very good neighbours for the
>>>> first, and rather bad ones for the second). Dabbled in the rest at
>>>> different times.
>>
>>> Your sestina was lovely.
>>
>>>>>> Perhaps, at best, a thousand of whom are worth reading. Of course,
>>>>>> the same ratio applies to the one Petrarchan sonnet writer: worth
>>>>>> reading, at best, one-tenth of the time
>>
>>> So now I know! A whiff, a scent of love
>>> can capture Angels in a sonnet's song.
>>> And though, in truth, no Angel will belong
>>> to me, I must attempt, to stay, the dove
>>> who's come down from bright heaven's courts above.
>>> But even verse can't hold this dove too long
>>> since cages keeping Angels would be wrong!
>>> So soar sprite spirit muse I'm pensive of
>>> since pensive poets painful vigils keep;
>>> and dying to an Angel's only gain
>>> so deadly love I'll live within my sleep,
>>> and sleeping, love the death in which I'm slain.
>>> The one last question causing me to weep,
>>> is how to free, and still my love contain.
>>
>> - Tom Bishop, 2004
>>
>> That is perhaps Bishop's best online work. One reason is that he put
>> is best two lines at the end. (Though, IMO, they'd have worked even
>> better as a couplet).
The one last question causing me to weep,
is how to free, and still my lover keep.
I don't like that as much.
>> Notice the padding, though - the cliched rhyme
tired rhymes... sure.
Angel loved it.
The poetry dabblers (which are much more prevalent)
seem to like it. I bet Babs at least likes it. :)
>> of 'love', 'dove,' and 'above', for instance (and the trite lines with
>> no purpose except to sneak 'dove' and 'above' into the poem).
>
> Exercise for the reader: rewrite the above sonnet in Dockerish.
Let Will do it.
--
-------------------------------------------
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http://ClitIns.Com e In.
(800 folders. -- kiddie-filtered -- FREE,
Usenet Porn.)
>
>
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