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Author: ZerkonXZerkonX Date: Mar 22, 2008 07:39
Can anything be actually pre-determined if the determination is
impossible to determine?
If this is so, the idea of 'free will' and pre-determination are not in
conflict.
Pre-determination, here, refers to a perpetual order in all existence. It
does not 'follow' law, it is law and as such all acts reflect this order.
It is chaos free but change rich.
However, this is also as big as it sounds. This may be realized at some
cognitive level but can never be defined perfectly in terms of
predictable results or effects. If it were, the exact resting positions
of 3, 300 or 3 million marbles thrown 10' into the air landing on a flat
100 sq yard concrete surface could be perfectly predicted.
Scientific method attempts to do this and succeeds but only within the
limitations of it's immediate need and error can be outside the
capability of science not only to detect but to even realize. As an
example, for thousands of years bacteria contamination was unknown to
science.
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Author: ImmortalistImmortalist Date: Mar 22, 2008 08:11
On Mar 22, 7:39 am, ZerkonX X.net> wrote:> Can anything be actually pre-determined if the determination is
> impossible to determine?
>
> If this is so, the idea of 'free will' and pre-determination are not in
> conflict.
>
> Pre-determination, here, refers to a perpetual order in all existence. It
> does not 'follow' law, it is law and as such all acts reflect this order.
> It is chaos free but change rich.
>
> However, this is also as big as it sounds. This may be realized at some
> cognitive level but can never be defined perfectly in terms of
> predictable results or effects. If it were, the exact resting positions
> of 3, 300 or 3 million marbles thrown 10' into the air landing on a flat
> 100 sq yard concrete surface could be perfectly predicted.
>
> Scientific method attempts to do this and succeeds but only within the
> limitations of it's immediate need and error can be outside the
> capability of science not only to detect but to even realize. As an ...
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Author: chazwinchazwin Date: Mar 22, 2008 09:06
On Mar 22, 2:39 pm, ZerkonX X.net> wrote:> Can anything be actually pre-determined if the determination is
> impossible to determine?
>
> If this is so, the idea of 'free will' and pre-determination are not in
> conflict.
For you to make this statement assumes a conflation of pre-
determination and "free-will".
Determinism simply states that every effect has a cause. This utterly
denies a position taken by those that assert...
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Author: ImmortalistImmortalist Date: Mar 22, 2008 09:46
On Mar 22, 9:06 am, chazwin yahoo.com> wrote:> On Mar 22, 2:39 pm, ZerkonX X.net> wrote:
>>> Can anything be actually pre-determined if the determination is
>> impossible to determine?
>
>> If this is so, the idea of 'free will' and pre-determination are not in
>> conflict.
>
> For you to make this statement assumes a conflation of pre-
> determination and "free-will".
> Determinism simply states that every effect has a cause. This utterly
> denies a position taken by those that assert that we are able to act
> freely in spite of our motivation.
> Pre-determinism, other wise known as fatalism states that whatever you
> do, the future is already written, in spite of anything.
> Determinism allows for change depending on the actions of the present
> and the future is unknown but partly at least predictable dependant on
> the degree of knowldge of causal factors.
> When the determining factors are know such as ball on a billiard table ...
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Author: Brian FletcherBrian Fletcher Date: Mar 22, 2008 17:18
"chazwin" yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5e05b206-0afb-457b-a953-435770460b20@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 22, 2:39 pm, ZerkonX X.net> wrote:> Can anything be actually pre-determined if the determination is
> impossible to determine?
>
> If this is so, the idea of 'free will' and pre-determination are not in
> conflict.
For you to make this statement assumes a conflation of pre-
determination and "free-will".
Determinism simply states that every effect has a cause. This utterly
denies a position taken by those that assert...
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Author: chazwinchazwin Date: Mar 22, 2008 18:35
On Mar 22, 4:46 pm, Immortalist yahoo.com> wrote:> On Mar 22, 9:06 am, chazwin yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>> On Mar 22, 2:39 pm, ZerkonX X.net> wrote:>
>>> Can anything be actually pre-determined if the determination is
>>> impossible to determine?
>
>>> If this is so, the idea of 'free will' and pre-determination are not in
>>> conflict.
>
>> For you to make this statement assumes a conflation of pre-
>> determination and "free-will".
>> Determinism simply states that every effect has a cause. This utterly
>> denies a position taken by those that assert that we are able to act
>> freely in spite of our motivation. ...
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Author: chazwinchazwin Date: Mar 22, 2008 18:43
On Mar 23, 12:18 am, "Brian Fletcher" gmail.com> wrote:> "chazwin" yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5e05b206-0afb-457b-a953-435770460b20@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 22, 2:39 pm, ZerkonX X.net> wrote:
>>> Can anything be actually pre-determined if the determination is
>> impossible to determine?
>
>> If this is so, the idea of 'free will' and pre-determination are not in
>> conflict.
>
> For you to make this statement assumes a conflation of pre-
> determination and "free-will".
> Determinism simply states that every effect has a cause. This utterly
> denies a position taken by those that assert that we are able to act
> freely in spite of our motivation.
> Pre-determinism, other wise known as fatalism states that whatever you
> do, the future is already written, in spite of anything.
> Determinism allows for change depending on the actions of the present ...
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Author: Brian FletcherBrian Fletcher Date: Mar 23, 2008 03:27
"chazwin" yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7ab0d30f-3ff0-4c3a-9a31-4f57a011b9c5@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 23, 12:18 am, "Brian Fletcher" gmail.com> wrote:> "chazwin" yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5e05b206-0afb-457b-a953-435770460b20@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 22, 2:39 pm, ZerkonX X.net> wrote:
>>> Can anything be actually pre-determined if the determination is
>> impossible to determine?
>
>> If this is so, the idea of 'free will' and pre-determination are not in
>> conflict.
>
> For you to make this statement assumes a conflation of pre-
> determination and "free-will".
> Determinism simply states that every effect has a cause. This utterly
> denies a position taken by those that assert that we are able to act
> freely in spite of our motivation.
> Pre-determinism, other wise known as fatalism states that whatever you ...
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Author: ZerkonXZerkonX Date: Mar 24, 2008 07:57
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 09:06:00 -0700, chazwin wrote:
> Determinism simply states that every effect has a cause. This utterly
> denies a position taken by those that assert that we are able to act
> freely in spite of our motivation. Determinism
> allows for change depending on the actions of the present and the future
> is unknown but partly at least predictable dependant on the degree of
> knowldge of causal factors. When the determining factors are know such
> as ball on a billiard table the outcome is predictable. Free will has no
> place, if we hit the ball a certain way then the valls will take a
> predictable path.
Alright, 'determinism' then. This 'utterly denies' is still my point, in
that it does not. The two concepts can exist, one does not deny the other.
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Author: knucmoknucmo Date: Mar 24, 2008 14:15
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:57:53 +0000, ZerkonX X.net> wrote:
>This is pretty much the point here. "We cannot have omniscient
>knowledge" therefore we have choice. The determination is not totally
>ours nor will all factors ever be known. Using your illustration of the
>billiard game again, knowledge alone does not guarantee a predictable
>outcome unless knowledge is forced fused to ability. This is a very
>interesting aspect. Ability does not necessarily need knowledge either.
That doesn't follow - it doesn't rule out the possibility that
everything has been determined already.
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