Re: Philosophical zombie
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Re: Philosophical zombie         

Group: alt.philosophy · Group Profile
Author: RaaN
Date: Oct 27, 2006 02:59

Whil I cannot hope to address all points here I will instead ventue to
address the conceptual underpinnings. The concept of a physical
universe is based entirely on recollection and extrapolation of past
events. The conscious being while an aware insofar as the conscious
being is aware of past events including thoughts, is primarily a
willing or intentional being in that the intentional being creates by
decision and impulse what and who he/she is. As such the conscious
being is primarily a future oriented being with the awareness of the
past as a kind of reflection which creates an illusuion of ego
identity. As such the intentional being is not physical in the sense
that all physicality is concieved based on the experience and
recollection of past events. However the truth is that the future is
not the same in nature as the past. The present emerges from a vast
potentiality of future possibility into a specific past. This is
evidenced by numerous quantum experiments. For example int he future
shroegingers famous cat is in fact both dead and alive since the
potential is equal. Only in the past is the cat one or the other and
the collapse occurs in the present moment just as does will manifest
into awareness. So a better understanding of time is the key to
putting ideas of the physical into proper perspective. The past does
indeed consist of a world of zombies so to speak because while they
behave and act as we do in the present they have to awareness nor
indeed will. I hope this serves to inspire some new insight into the
philosophical zombie problem if not clarify it outright.
--
RaaN

On Oct 26, 12:31 am, "turtoni" fastmail.net> wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
>
> A philosophical zombie or p-zombie is a hypothetical being that is
> indistinguishable from a normal human being except that it lacks
> conscious experience or qualia or sentience. When a zombie is poked
> with a sharp object, for example, it does not feel any pain. It behaves
> as if it does feel pain (it may say "Ouch!" and so forth), but it does
> not actually have the experience of pain as a person normally does.
>
> The notion of a philosophical zombie is mainly used in arguments (often
> called zombie arguments) in the philosophy of mind, particularly
> arguments against forms of physicalism or materialism-the view that
> the universe is entirely physical. ("Physical" here is usually taken to
> mean something along the lines of that which the language of physics
> describes; however, the term can be used in several ways.)
>
> Types of zombies
> The notion of a philosophical zombie is widely used in thought
> experiments, however the use is not always entirely uniform. There are,
> in effect, different types of p-zombies. What differs between the types
> of p-zombies that philosophers discuss is what they have in common with
> normal human beings. P-zombies were introduced primarily to argue
> against specific types of physicalism. Take behaviorism, for example.
> According to behaviorism, mental states are nothing over and above
> behavior; thus, belief, desire, thought, consciousness, and so on, are
> simply certain kinds of behavior. One might invoke the notion of a
> p-zombie that is behaviorally identical to normal human beings, but
> that lacks conscious experiences. Such a being is impossible, according
> to the behaviorist, since conscious experiences are nothing over and
> above certain behaviors. Thus, insofar as a p-zombie so described is
> possible, then behaviorism is false. Likewise, if such a behavioral
> zombie is impossible, then behaviorism is true.
>
> Thus, one might distinguish between various types of zombies, as they
> are used in different thought experiments, such as the following:
>
> A behavioral zombie is behaviorally identical with humans and yet has
> no conscious experience.
> A neurological zombie has a human brain and is otherwise physically
> identical to humans; nevertheless, it has no conscious experience.
> A soulless zombie lacks a soul but is otherwise indistinguishible from
> an ordinary person; the concept is used to question what, if anything,
> the soul does.
> However, philosophical zombies are primarily discussed in the context
> of arguments against physicalism in general. Thus, a p-zombie is
> typically taken to be a being that is physically identical to a normal
> human being but that lack conscious experience.
>
> Zombie arguments
> According to any version of physicalism, a p-zombie that is physically
> identical yet lacks conscious experience is impossible. This is because
> physicalists maintain that the universe is entirely physical; so as the
> physical constitution of the p-zombie is fixed, there is nothing left
> to be absent, even consciousness. Therefore, insofar as such a being is
> possible, physicalism is false. Zombie arguments attempt to motivate
> the belief that zombies are possible, and, thus, that physicalism is
> false. The argument, then, is taken to support dualism-the view that
> the universe is made up of two substances: the mental and the physical.
>
> The zombie argument against physicalism is, thus, a version of a
> general modal argument against physicalism, such as that of Saul
> Kripke's in "Naming and Necessity" (1972)[1]. The notion of a p-zombie,
> as used to argue against physicalism, was notably developed in the
> 1970s by Thomas Nagel (1970) & (1974) and Robert Kirk (1974).
>
> However, the zombie argument against physicalism in general was most
> famously developed in detail by David Chalmers in The Conscious Mind
> (1996). According to Chalmers, one can coherently conceive of an entire
> zombie world: a world physically indiscernible from our world, but that
> lacks conscious experiences. Every being in such a world would be a
> p-zombie. The structure of Chalmers's version of the zombie argument
> can be outlined as follows:
>
> If physicalism is true, then it is not possible for there to be a world
> in which all the physical facts are the same as those of the actual
> world and have any additional facts left over. (This is because,
> according to P, there are only physical things, so there is nothing to
> be different; any world that is physically identical to our world is
> just simply identical to our world, so nothing can be different about
> it.)
> But there is a possible world in which the physical facts are the same
> as those of our world but that there are additional facts that are
> different. (For example, it is possible that there is a world exactly
> like ours in every physical respect, but in it everyone lacks certain
> mental states, namely any phenomenal experiences or qualia. The people
> there look and act just like people in the actual world, but they don't
> feel anything; when one gets shot, for example, he yells out as if he
> is in pain, but he doesn't feel any pain.)
> Therefore, physicalism is false. (The conclusion follows by modus
> tollens.)
> The argument is valid, in that if its premises are true, then the
> conclusion must be true. However, whether its premises are true is what
> philosophers dispute. For example, concerning premise two: Is such
> zombie world really possible? Chalmers states that "it certainly seems
> that a coherent situation is described; I can discern no contradiction
> in the description."[2] Since such a world is conceivable, Chalmers
> claims, it is possible; and if such a world is possible, then
> physicalism is false. Chalmers agrees that such p-zombies are
> (probably) not naturally or physically possible, just logically or
> metaphysically possible. Chalmers states: "Zombies are probably not
> naturally possible: they probably cannot exist in our world, with its
> laws of nature."[3]
>
> Thus, one is lead to the following questions: What is the relevant
> notion of possibility here? And, is such a scenario in premise two
> possible in the same sense as in premise one? Most philosophers agree
> that the relevant possiblity is not so weak as logical possibility;
> surely a zombie world is logically possible (there is no logical
> contradiction in the scenario). But, such a weak notion is not crucial
> to a metaphysical thesis such a physicalism. Most philosophers agree
> that the relevant notion of possibility is some sort of metaphysical
> possibility. What the proponent of the zombie argument claims is that
> one can tell from the armchair, just by the power of reason, that such
> a zombie scenario is metaphysically possible. Chalmers states: "From
> the conceivability of zombies, proponents of the argument infer their
> metaphysical possibility."[4] Chalmers claims that this inference from
> conceivability to metaphysical possibility is not generally legitimate,
> but is so for phenomenal concepts such as consciousness.[5]
>
> Criticism
> A physicalist might respond to the zombie argument in several ways.
> Most responses deny premise two (of Chalmers's version above); that is,
> they deny that a zombie scenario is possible. Physicalists tend not to
> deny premise one, because it requires denying something that most
> physicalists think is part of or an implication of physicalism.
>
> One response is to claim that the idea of qualia and related phenomenal
> notions of the mind are not coherent concepts, and thus the zombie
> scenario is incoherent. Daniel Dennett and others take this line. They
> argue that while consciousness qualia, subjective experiences, and so
> forth exist, in some sense, they are not as the zombie argument
> proponent claims they are; pain, for example, is not something that you
> can just strip off a person's mental life without any behavioral or
> physiological differences. Dennett coined the term zimboes to argue
> that the idea of a philosophical zombie is incoherent-see Dennett
> (1995) and (1999), for example. Dennett states: "Philosophers ought to
> have dropped the zombie like a hot potato, but since they persist in
> their embrace, this gives me a golden opportunity to focus attention on
> the most seductive error in current thinking."[6]
>
> Another physicalist response is to provide some an error theory for the
> intuitions of the possibility of a zombie scenario. Philosophers, such
> as Stephen Yablo (1998), have taken this line and argued that concepts
> about what is physical and is possibly physical adapt over time, so
> while conceptual analysis is reliable in some areas of philosophy, it
> is not reliable here. Yablo states, "I am braced for the information
> that is going to make zombies inconceivable, even though I have no real
> idea what form the information is going to take."[7]
>
> The zombie argument is difficult to assess, because it brings to light
> fundamental disagreements that philosophers have about the method and
> scope of philosophy itself. It gets to the core of disagreements about
> the nature and abilities of conceptual analysis. Proponents of the
> zombie argument, such as Chalmers, think that conceptual analysis is a
> central part of (if not the only part of) philosophy and that it
> certainly can do a great deal of philosophical work (for example,
> refuting physicalism). However, others, such as Dennett, Paul
> Churchland, W.V. Quine, and so on, have fundamentally different views
> from Chalmers about the nature and scope of philosophical analysis.
> Thus, discussion of the zombie argument remains vigorous in philosophy.
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