On 14 May, 19:00, "turtoni" fastmail.net> wrote:
>> we're like droplets of meme pooling together to form ponds of story:
>
>> coffee is good.
>> mowing the lawn.
>> driving a car to work.
>> putting on some pants.
>> combing your hair.
>> operating a jet fighter.
>> sitting on a toilet.
>> planting a sacred tree.
>> reading a book.
>
>> plenty of cultural meme meaning there; open to the infection.
>>>> "chazwin"
>>>> Once again - so fucking what?
>>>> Meme theory offers nothing in explanation.
>>>> It does not say why memes arise and cannot suggest why they decline.
>
> Try
reading:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
>
> Lot's of answers to your "so fucking what?"
>
> "In response to these criticisms, memeticists might argue that as their
> discipline does not construe memes as "particulate" entities, they therefore
> parallel indirectly the entirety of existing evolutionary taxonomy. (For
> example, one would not preclude fish from the animal kingdom for their lack
> of lungs.)
> The author Evan Louis Sheehan, on the other hand, does attempt to rigorously
> portray the cognitive representations of memes as "particulate" entities. He
> defines them as patterns captured in cortical hierarchies, identical in
> structure to what Jeff Hawkins proposes in his book On Intelligence (2004).
> Each hierarchy expresses a complex pattern that the brain-owner has
> automatically sensed and remembered, as a consequence of simple Hebbian
> learning. "Sensed patterns" captured in these cortical hierarchies can
> reflect anything from the shape of a tree to a commonly-performed pattern of
> behavior that routinely propagates through mimicry. A cortical hierarchy
> consists of a "molecular" entity, constructed from sub-hierarchies (as the
> pattern of a tree comprises the sub-patterns of leaves, branches and a
> trunk), which themselves ultimately comprise "atomic" entities - small,
> patterned combinations of sensory elements. Memes thus take on a
> "particulate" nature that allows their combination and re-combination in
> various ways. Sheehan, in his book The Mocking Memes: A Basis for Automated
> Intelligence builds a model of creative thinking around a rapidly-evolving
> Darwinian process of combining and re-combining various causal memes, which
> represent nothing more than remembered patterns of causality.
>
> Sheehan describes a meme as any sort of pattern that serves as a template
> for its own replication. He suggests that an understanding of memetics
> requires a recognition of how such patterns get themselves automatically
> translated - according to the strict laws of physics - from substrate to
> substrate, as from patterns of light entering a human eye to patterns of
> neural excitations in the retina of that eye, to the Hebbian development of
> hierarchical patterns of neural connections in the cortex, and ultimately to
> patterns of muscle contractions that serve to mimic the witnessed behaviors
> of others.
Is is interesting but almost completely irrelevant.
>
> Philosopher and cognitive scientist Daniel Dennett, in a debate with
> theologian Alister McGrath, has responded to criticism regarding the lack of
> rigor in the study of memetics by claiming that words and similar means of
> spreading and holding ideas provide a clear model for the spread and storage
> of memes. Sheehan suggests the automatic translation of patterns among
> various substrates as critical to providing the means for spreading and
> holding patterns of words and ideas. For example, we speak words through
> vibrational patterns of the larynx, which get translated to pressure waves
> in air, which then get translated to vibrations of a listener's ear drum,
> which then get translated to waves of cochlear fluid inside the inner ear,
> which then get translated to patterns of neural firings, which then get
> translated to patterns of neural connections, thereby establishing a memory
> of the spoken words in the listener's mind.
Do you think sound science can explain the beauty of Wordsworth poem
or the plot of a Shakespeare play??? Please answer this question!
Sheehan asserts that the
> constant flitting of memetic patterns from one substrate to another makes
> memes so difficult to pin down, as analogous to genes, but that the physical
> processes that translate memetic patterns from substrate to substrate
> exhibit an usually high level of fidelity.
>
> According to Sheehan, "automatic translations of patterns from substrate to
> substrate to substrate, and back again, provide looping pathways by which
> patterns can iteratively replicate, mutate and evolve." Sheehan claims that
> "many such looping pathways exist both within a single brain (to create an
> intelligent mind) and among many brains (to create culture, language and
> technology)."
>
> Others suggest that many of the criticisms of memetic theory stem from
> confusion over what the term "gene" refers to. In microbiology,
> microbiologists see a "gene" as a cistron, a specific region of DNA. The
> analogy between memes and genes, however, relates to an evolutionary
> biologist's gene, an abstract replicatory unit of information. People[who?]
> who think of a gene as an actual visible piece of DNA often criticise the
> memetic analogy because of this. An example of such an "abstract replicatory
> unit of information" might code for the color of one's hair or for the
> length of a digit"
I've read some of this stuff. I'm actually reading Dennett's Breaking
the Spell at the moment. His method identifies a MECHANISM by which
things ideas, especially religion (good and bad) are reproduced in
human society. They do not have to have any utility, as they would in
biological evolution, but they can reproduce "because they can" (his
own words). None of this is satisfactory and it cannot tell us how and
more importantly WHY such ideas flourish and receed. For that you need
good old hisorical disciplines and philosophy. Using meme theory is no
better than trying to explain the impact of television on the mind of
the young by showing the science of the Cathode Ray Tube.