On Dec 31, 1:00 pm, "Miller"
chartermi.net> wrote:>> On Dec 31, 8:34 am, "Miller"
chartermi.net> wrote:>>> "ta"
nc.rr.com> wrote in message>
>
>>>> On Dec 30, 2:28 pm, "Miller"
chartermi.net> wrote:>>>>> "ta"
nc.rr.com> wrote in message>
>
>>>>>> On Dec 30, 10:22 am, "Miller"
chartermi.net> wrote:>>>>>>> "ta"
nc.rr.com> wrote in message>
>
>>>>>>>> Somehow the two seem inextricably linked, and I think this is the
>>>>>>>> reason: when you are experiencing some emotional pain, you are in
>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> most vulnerable state . . . the state in which the ego all but
>>>>>>>> disappears.
>
>>>>>>>> And when your ego is not in the way, you have cleared the path
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> understanding and insight. The obstacles are removed when you
>>>>>>>> finally
>>>>>>>> give up and let go. It's about submission, and the pain is the
>>>>>>>> catalyst.
>
>>>>>>>> And then, amazingly, all you have to do is ask and the answers
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> provided.
>
>>>>>>> When people dwell on their pain, such as that which can cuase
>>>>>>> clinical
>>>>>>> depresssion, just the opposite happens: all one can think about is
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> own pain. This is submission to a runaway ego.
>
>>>>>>> Scott
>
>>>>>> You're right, but dwelling on one's pain indefinitely is not really
>>>>>> "submission" -- it's just the opposite. It's hanging on to the
>>>>>> "me" . . . it's the "self" in self-pity.
>
>>>>>> The one who is in a state of allowing says: I submit -- I let go of
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> ego so that I may learn. Submission is crying "Uncle!" to the
>>>>>> Universe/
>>>>>> God/, which opens up the communication
>>>>>> channels. You've cleared out the pathways so that information may
>>>>>> flow.
>
>>>>>> The same type of thing happens in these newsgroups (though rarely it
>>>>>> seems). One person sets aside their preconceived notions/biases/
>>>>>> prejudices -- that is, their ego -- and actually listens to what the
>>>>>> other person is saying without judgment. As a result, the pathways
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> now open for communication and the person actually learns something.
>
>>>>>> In contrast, the one who is in a state of depression says: Woe is
>>>>>> me,
>>>>>> poor me, what did I do to deserve this, how could I be so unlucky?
>>>>>> That's not letting go. That's clinging to the ego, in which case no
>>>>>> learning can ever take place.
>
>>>>>> Pain can cause both of these states, no doubt.
>
>>>>> Yes. Even with pain it seems, I think it depends on what we choose to
>>>>> do
>>>>> with it.
>
>>>>> Scott
>
>>>> I hear what you're saying, but in some cases, there is no choice
>>>> involved. If someone experiences some extremely traumatic event, the
>>>> brain just shuts down and blocks out the feeling altogether (i.e.,
>>>> dissociation, or emotional numbing).
>
>>>> But I guess that is not really "depression", as the depressed person I
>>>> think at least acknowledges their feelings (so much so that they
>>>> become consumed by them). In the other case, the uncomfortable
>>>> feelings are suppressed, but I don't think that is a choice; it's an
>>>> automatic response.
>
>>> I am not sure how common the "shocked/numb" sort of depression occurs
>>> (except for some drama TV and movies),
>
>> 1. It's not really "depression", since as I stated earlier, the
>> depressed person actually acknowledges their feelings. The individual
>> whose feelings have been numbed haven't even made it that far yet.
>
>> 2. Dissociation and denial are very common defense mechanisms -- ask
>> any psychologist or psychiatrist. The victim of trauma does not
>> "choose" to react to painful memories by dissociating or denying.
>
>> For example:
>
>> "Most defense mechanisms are fairly unconscious - that means most of
>> us don't realize we're using them in the moment. Some types of
>> psychotherapy can help a person become aware of what defense
>> mechanisms they are using, how effective they are, and how to use less
>> primitive and more effective mechanisms in the future."
>
>
>> Also interesting:
>
>
>>> but with real clinical dpression,
>>> there is a biochemical component as well. People with chronic
>>> mononucleosis
>>> and some other diseases like pancreatic cancer also become depressed,
>>> apparently due to physiological causes, so I suppose one cannot blame all
>>> cases of depression on a bad choice of how one wishes to respond.
>
>>> Scott
>
>> Yeah, it's tricky business when you start talking about "choice" . . .
>> severe trauma can eliminate the capacity for choice altogether.
>
> I suppose. On the other hand, one can always be said to have some choice,
> even if those choices are not pleasant ones.
>
> Scott
Yeah, the whole issue of choice is complicated (and I'm not a
professional psychotherapist). I think at some point the person must
choose to acknowledge their painful feelings if they ever want to
heal. But I'm not sure how a person actually gets to that point. Some
people never do.
