"tg"
earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ab9c17a5-e132-4c88-b294-59b7eefeaa4b@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 10, 2:02 am, "Sean" now.com.au> wrote:> "tg"
earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:3fba0df1-c171-4148-a01a-5e71ff493744@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 9, 7:43 am, "Sean" now.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>>> Thx Sean
>
>>> --
>>> "Fear not the path of truth for the lack of people walking on it." RFK
>>> 1968
>
> Ok Sean, you are getting to be a bottom-feeder like Bret---what kind
> of challenge do you expect from those guys? Let me offer a question
> for you that your other post got me thinking about:
>
> How is a gold standard different from the current one? It seems to me
> that both rely on faith in the gummint, and an artificial 'value'
> attributed to the standard.
>
> -tg
>
> ----------------------
>
> Hi tg, you're bein' a bit hard on me aren't you, comparing me to Bret? :-(
>
Tough love, dude, tough love. ;-)
> Someone's gotta clean up all the garbage settling on the floor of our
> ocean
> of ideas. :-)
>
> OK to your good question.
>
> I think the main difference is that Gold can neither be created, nor
> destroyed. Just lost at sea, or maybe even stolen. It doesn't rust,
> doesn't
> take up much space vs value, which is why god made it heavy. :-)
>
> Cash notes on the other hand ....... well, it's real cheap to print, some
> folks like to light their cigars with a $1000 bill, and the biggy is no
> one
> has yet found a way to counterfeit Gold.
>
> So that's a primary principle, imho, but it does I'm sure fail to address
> to
> your satisfaction the larger "economics" issues .... that's where all the
> mirrors start working and it gets harder to see the truth from the
> fiction.
> Or under which shell is the real pea.
>
> Now, if I may add, even if Ron P is saying what he says, doesn;t mean I
> know
> enough to know if changing back to gold is a good idea or not. But, for
> me,
> it's one of the things that has changed the last century, with the speed
> of
> changes these last 20 years especially, well it;s one hell of a scrambled
> egg isn't it? And really I am not sure what the solutions are, but I;m
> pretty confident that what is happening now is a major problem and not the
> solution.
Ok Sean, I think this part is basically an honest reply---which is, "I
dunno".
What's you say below is I think the real point though. If we had
wonderful philosopher kings to run things, then I suspect that almost
any kind of system would work, at least as well as it can with too
many people for the available resources.
But the converse is true as well. Follow all the principles of RP, and
there will still be people who will find a way to turn things to their
advantage and the detriment of most. Consider the 1930's, which
followed on a period of zero gummint control of anything. What people
don't seem to realize is that the gummint acting as a damper on things
is actually a *good* thing much of the time. Systems need a degree of
inertia otherwise you get endless booms and busts.
The best political argument there is for the Dems v the Republicans is
that Dems will tend to hire government types to run things, and they
will pay attention to all the little nitpicks that infuriate people,
but slow things down enough that thinking and long-term planning is
possible. Sorry, but that's the best you're going to get with the
world the way it is.
If you don't believe that profound excursions are a problem when a
system gets overheated, try growing some grain in Australia, eh?
-tg
------------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate the tough love, love! :)
And I'm not 100%% sure, but doesn't australia grow more grain the USA? Even
if it doesn't, aussie is far superior in quality grain for grain, than
anything scratched out of the ground in the ol USA. Sorry, one good turn of
love, deserves another!
OK, now saying "I dunno" is fair enough .... it's sorta true, yet not quite
as well. I'm just not willing to state anything that clearly, because this
issue of the gold standard is only one small part of a million piece jigsaw
puzzle. That doesn't mean I can't see the current big picture, and also see
an alternative viable big picture that isn't so ugly.
It's a philosophy newsgroup, not hard ass economics anyway, therefore I
speak along the lines of 'philosophy' and concepts, and principles, and
ethics, and values. Along the way then more mundane comments need to be
made. But I'm not willing or prepared to nail those all down as if I have
all the answers that might suit you, fred, or bret, or the world's financial
system across the board. I hope that's understood.
But I am willing to challenge accepted ideas and beliefs. That's the juice
for me anyway. And I'm willing to present alternative notions, even if they
don;t necessarily stack up, or are articulated by me co-herently of fully
.... you see I don;t see that as being my job. Top spell everything out in a
neat little package, in an effort to refute all known alternative views. I'm
not here to agrue, or to convince others how "right" I am ... that's not the
issue for me. I like to plant seeds.
But I couldn't really give a shit about the world's financial system ......
let alone the USA's "imagined" supremacy in world affairs. I am also not
aligned with any side/version of political philosophy either. I'm quite
independent actually.
So, in this light, regarding what you said above .... I believe the notion
that "governments" main role in life is to slow down the rate of changes. If
you haven't heard about this idea before, look it up. Their role in a
"perfect" world is to carefully consider the pro's and con's LONG TERM, in
the *self-interests* of the nation or even the local municipality..........
iow the PEOPLE who have honourably handed their *individual* power, values,
and self-interest to the Govt to act on their behalf.
Their "behalf" btw would also include the health of the natural environment,
especially long term. Everyone has a responsibility to what they leave thier
childrens, childrens children. No doubt about that in any way, have I.
This is what I'd call a primary value ..... and if I could do anything to
point people in a direction on how to think about things, especially when
they are as complicated as world economics & financial systems ... is to
REDUCE this complexity into a microcosm of the individual.
iow if you apply what either the bankers, capitalists, busniessman,
religious leader, or government is saying or doing ... then reduce it down
to what it would look like if the parents of a family did that under ANY
circumstances, how would their relatives or their local neighbours react
.... what would you end up with?
I'm not going to spell that out any further, it's only something each person
can do for themselves. IOW each individual really needs to think for
themselves, I can't put my head on your shoulders and do your thinking for
you. Neither can the Government or Businessman, excpet in the context that
they are already CLEARLY informed by those whom they are supposed to serve.
That is the citizen or the customer, and thier neighbours.
At present, the information flow is going in the wrong direction ....
individuals are being told and being forced what is "good for them" and
having *values* imposed on them by overt and covert forces.
I can understand how the many comments of Ron Paul can sound really flaky,
or of no real chnage at the end of the day .... as you say, you imagine the
negative aspects of business/finance would soon find a way around it. I say
yes and no ... it depends. [ whilst acknowledging that it IS a truism that
liberty requires eternal vigilance ....... sure is lacking in the current
political climate everywhere on the planet, imho ]
What I think you, and others, may be missing [ I'm not sure ] in the RP
rhetoric is his many many guiding principles and values, which would
underpin any functional change like dumping the Fed, the IRS, and especially
personal Income Tax. Many seem to think that all these "voids" will open up.
I don't believe so. People need to listen to what he says, and many many
others about issues such as when it comes to politics and government in the
USA, the #1 guiding Principle is in fact the US Constitution. It is actually
very very clear. What wrong imho is that people simply do not operate within
it's boundaries.
Secondly what gives the Constitution it's distinct *Values* IS the
Declaration of Independence. You can't have one without the other, they must
BOTH be applied in harmony, or things need to stop untill they do.
Thirdly, in order for the Constitution to fullfill it's goals, there must be
a valid and functional system of Laws ...... AND ...... natural justice
coming as a result of those Laws being applied. [ such things as Separation
of Powers is a part of that, as is the issue that if even one individual is
to be harmed by a Law, then it is an immoral Law, even if the purpose of the
Law was for the collective good of all.]
Given all the above can be easily reduced into a microcosm in the life of an
individual living under those 3 guiding principles and subsequent Laws, then
it isn;t really that hard for individuals to consider what will be the
effects long term for the state or nation as a whole, and there one will
find the the proof of the pudding. No exceptions.
Now with regard the dems/repubs ...... these entities have absolutely
NOTHING to do with the US Constitution .... they are as totally irrelevant
as the Fed, the IRS, and personal Income tax, and who is authorised under
the Constitution to coin money.
And yet, when one 'registers' with the Government as a voter they are
required to make a notation if they are repub/demo or independent. No where
in the Constitution is authority given to any political party, or entity, to
decide who has the right to run for President or Governor of a State.
No where in the Constituion is there given any authority that Democrat
registered voters have the extra power over and above all other citizens of
the USA to choose who can run as Presidental Candidate.
No where in the Constitution is authority given that members of Political
parties have the sole right to run elections, count votes, and declare who
wins elections.
and lastly Tg, what would the People think, if all the companies in the USA
that made and sold Widgetts colluded to the set the price of Widgetts that
all people in the USA must pay if they wanted to buy a Widgett for personal
use?
And yet, this is exactly what happens when it comes to issue of Financial
Loans to individuals and business. The "price" is set, it is fixed, and it
is maniplualted by the very people who offer such "products".
It happens here in Australia as well, as everywhere else, almost. There is
no freedom or liberty in such a situation.
What's wrong in my view, is that the various "systems" themselves are
disfunctional, and the only thing that will solve this situation is a
fundamental breakdown of those systems, and rebuilding them in a way that
serves the People.
The fundamental proinciple and value here is that POWER according to the
constitution is supposed to reside in THE PEOPLE .
Currently it does not, and that is the problem, as well as the solution.
What's lacking is the Will of the People to do anything about it.
This has occured because of a thorough undermining of the people's power,
thru the abuse of power of a relatively small number of ideological power
brokers with a total absence of the most important of Human Values.
End of discourse, make of it what you will. Best I can do today.
So, thanks for listening, and thanks for being such an openminded and
thoughtful individual. :-)
cheers sean
>
> I can;t explain this yet in a suitable way, but what bear sterns & freddie
> mac have been doing with "mortgage repackaging" and marketing them, and
> selling them around the world is fundamentally wrong and corrupt. What the
> central banks are doing is fundamentally wrong and corrupt. What the
> individual politicians know about such things is but a drop in the
> bucket --
> so rather than accuse them of corruption, I see them as being grossly
> manipulated [ in their desire for relection and as a salve against their
> own
> impotence in such responsible positions of power ..... basically they are
> beyond their capacity to work out what's going on inside the house of
> mirrors.
>
> At the core of all this economic juggling appears to me to be the words
> "self-interest". What that means imho, is it means very different things
> to
> different people. Sound ideas and philosophies and values seem to have
> been
> spun out of any sense of reality. Maybe looking at the role of Gold in the
> past, is but part of the method to unscramble the egg, and smash all the
> mirrors? I'm not sure.
>
> One person who I do admire and seen a bot of the last few years is the
> Economist Jeffery Sachs. He tried his best to help Russia in the early
> 90's,
> and his ideas about Carbon trading and the whole climate change dynamic
> sound absolutely excellent to me.
>
> At the end of day Tg, it's about "values" isn't it? Todays world in the
> west
> seems to have twisted and confused people's values and they have lost
> sight
> of what is really important to them as others do flashy things to attract
> attention so they can tell people "they have the solutions for these
> problems".
>
> Isn;t defying reality that the ones creating the problems can speak with
> such forked tongues as to be credible that they have the solutions, yet
> again?
>
> Hope that helps. cheers sean
