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Author: thinkerthinker Date: Nov 28, 2007 06:50
Okay, is it ridiculous to argue that the mind-body problem has an easy
solution and is not a hard problem as David Chalmers thinks. Well, to be
fair to Chalmers, there is a hard problem and that is trying to understand
the relationship of mind and body in the physicalist framework (ideology?
dogma?) that predominates in science and philosophy in America and England
(it may predominate elsewhere, but I plead ignorance). In fact, that's a
problem, IMO, with no solution.
However, I think we can philosophically tame the mind-body problem by first
thinking about what we know about the world. And one thing we know is that
matter is conscious and even thinks, feels, imagines...
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Author: Don StockbauerDon Stockbauer Date: Nov 28, 2007 06:59
The mind is the brain operating.
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Author: thinkerthinker Date: Nov 28, 2007 07:05
> The mind is the brain operating.
Well, sure, no arguing that a brain is necessary for the mind. The question
is, how does the brain generate conscious states. In the physicalist
understanding of matter this is a complete mystery. The philsophical
solution to the physicalist problem is this: the physicalist understanding
of matter is abstract.
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Author: ArtArt Date: Nov 28, 2007 10:12
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:05:28 -0500, "thinker"
notreal.com> wrote:
>> The mind is the brain operating.
>
>Well, sure, no arguing that a brain is necessary for the mind.
No. Evidence is mounting that minds work better than ever in a
clinically dead (brain dead) situation.
>The question
>is, how does the brain generate conscious states.
It doesn't. The brain appears to be a instrument of the mind
and consciousness. The brain is most oriented to physical (sensory)
reality. The mind is far less restricted.
>In the physicalist
>understanding of matter this is a complete mystery. The philsophical
>solution to the physicalist problem is this: the physicalist understanding
>of matter is abstract.
The solution to the physicalist problem is to abandon it :)
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Author: pjmutnickpjmutnick Date: Nov 28, 2007 10:39
On Nov 28, 6:50 am, "thinker" notreal.com> wrote:> Okay, is it ridiculous to argue that the mind-body problem has an easy
> solution and is not a hard problem as David Chalmers thinks. Well, to be
> fair to Chalmers, there is a hard problem and that is trying to understand
> the relationship of mind and body in the physicalist framework (ideology?
> dogma?) that predominates in science and philosophy in America and England
> (it may predominate elsewhere, but I plead ignorance). In fact, that's a
> problem, IMO, with no solution.
>
> However, I think we can philosophically tame the mind-body problem by first
> thinking about what we know about the world. And one thing we know is that
> matter is conscious and even thinks, feels, imagines, plans, remembers, etc.
> None of this can be explained by the equations or laws of physics and so we
> have to ask if physics completely explains the stuff of the world or is
> necessarily limited to a partial description. I would argue that the
> physical description of the stuff of the world necessarily ignores what
> cannot be put into equations (eg, conscious experiences). This isn't a bad
> way to operate since most of the stuff of the world doesn't think or isn't
> conscious. But what this means is that the physical description of the
> world is abstract and is therefore limited in its applicability. Its ...
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Author: thinkerthinker Date: Nov 28, 2007 10:47
"Art" zilch.com> wrote in message
news:7vark3heolb80vt8i7jutdjmpud9bvb784@4ax.com...> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:05:28 -0500, "thinker"
> notreal.com> wrote:
>>>> The mind is the brain operating.
>>
>>Well, sure, no arguing that a brain is necessary for the mind.
>
> No. Evidence is mounting that minds work better than ever in a
> clinically dead (brain dead) situation.
>
>>The question
>>is, how does the brain generate conscious states.
>
> It doesn't. The brain appears to be a instrument of the mind
> and consciousness. The brain is most oriented to physical (sensory)
> reality. The mind is far less restricted. ...
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Author: thinkerthinker Date: Nov 28, 2007 10:49
> Not even wrong. You haven't said anything. "Matter thinks" is
> meaningless without a definition of the two terms. Alfred North
> Whitehead developed a systematic system of speculative philosophy,
> wherein "matter thinks" is given real content and meaning, albeit
> entirely unconventional.
Entirely my point. But the physicalist has the problem because his
definition of matter cannot explain how conscious states arise; hence, the
mind-body problem in science and philosophy.
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Author: MobyDikcMobyDikc Date: Nov 28, 2007 12:27
On Nov 28, 7:05 am, "thinker" notreal.com> wrote:>> The mind is the brain operating.
>
> Well, sure, no arguing that a brain is necessary for the mind.
Yes there is. Ask the Dali Lama.
> The question
> is, how does the brain generate conscious states.
Conscious states generate the brain.
The mind body problem can be solved by implementing Leibniz's
Monadology with mathematics, an idea that would have been
inconcievable until computing and neuroscience.
I'm sure you will disagree.
I don't think I can explain it in one post, much less convince you to
change your mind.
Only a journey of personal transformation could accomplish that.
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Author: pjmutnickpjmutnick Date: Nov 28, 2007 14:01
On Nov 28, 10:49 am, "thinker" notreal.com> wrote:>> Not even wrong. You haven't said anything. "Matter thinks" is
>> meaningless without a definition of the two terms. Alfred North
>> Whitehead developed a systematic system of speculative philosophy,
>> wherein "matter thinks" is given real content and meaning, albeit
>> entirely unconventional.
>
> Entirely my point. But the physicalist has the problem because his
> definition of matter cannot explain how conscious states arise; hence, the
> mind-body problem in science and philosophy.
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Author: thinkerthinker Date: Nov 28, 2007 14:00
> The mind body problem can be solved by implementing Leibniz's
> Monadology with mathematics, an idea that would have been
> inconcievable until computing and neuroscience.
The reality I'm talking about is the same one that Hobbes talked about, only
a little smaller!
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