"ZerkonX"
X.net> wrote in message news:pan.2008.08.14.14.39.07@X.net...> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:07:05 -0400, tooly wrote:
>
>> You got to great length....
>
> Yes, I do and will continue to do so.
>
>> That we admonish it's influence, it remains the foundation upon which
>> our civility was constructed
>
> Civility was constructed upon law. Human law. Ideas of justice to which
> humans subjugated themselves. The seed, this foundation was started when
> the person WITH power and with dominance subjugated themselves to this.
>
> It is in defiance of this idea of jungle law. This defiance is part of
> humanity. I say this only because this concept of law has such a deep
> history across all cultures.
>
>> ...and cannot be escaped [much as foundation stone can be removed from
>> a building without it falling down].
>
> I think you are mistaken. The attempt at 'escape', as you put it, defines
> all human progress. These attempts are the stones. A better design to
> your analogy might be that this building is being erected in an
> environment, at times hostile and at times benign. Like weather.
>
> You can not kill off weather, nor would you really want to but you can
> adjust and make your building as comfortable as you can given what you
> know at the time.
>
> Now the big bone of contention...
>
> Everyone is in this building. No one is 'outside' trying to get in. Only
> this 'weather' is outside. Human conflict is how this building is to be
> constructed that everyone occupies which begins with how it has been
> constructed to date.
>
>> Doesn't using jungle law lead to darwinian arguments and predatory
>> justification? Fascism used jungle law didn't it?
>
> I have to go back to the main point of the post.
>
> "Jungle law" is a human metaphor. It does not exist as fact outside of
> idea. What is done in a jungle is done because it is being done in a
> jungle, that's it. "Forest Law" does not have the same dramatic weight
> but this metaphor is closer to actuality.
>
> Darwinists, fascists and anyone may justify their actions with claims of
> being enslaved by primal necessity and bestial predetermination but this
> is not the want of humanity and hasn't been since the first human song
> was sung.
>
I think you are being a bit naive is all. The human psyche is like a
layered painting, or upper eschelon programming built upon a mountain of
underlying binary, or perhaps simply the preverbial iceberg form where the
bulk of what makes us tick lay underneath, in the subliminal consciousness
[including our primal selves].
Think what politics is about. Pure politics is about 'power'...and little
else, because it remains, without POWER, no idealism can be installed,
maintained, enforced...or survive. There is a good argument that fascism
is the more honest explanation and one reason why we have tried to create a
'system' outside the judgement of men [humans] that it provide a more just
overseeing for everyone [and not just a few]. But even here, there must be
'force' to maintain the system. And 'force' means at least a open door to
a fascist precept as the underlying rule to the program.
Another way of understanding is realizing how it organized. Big APE held
back the bananas to small ape...and small ape had to 'dance' for his supper.
That in essence is the 'binary code' that ended up in the complexity we know
today as civilization and the underlying reality to all the pretty ideals we
hold up to ourselves as higher domain. It still take the BIG APE to tell
all the small apes how they are to behave. That may come by way of a
system of law, courts, CEOs, bosses, rich people, or just those with greater
resource. Remember, half of jungle law is that the 'clever rule over the
physically strong'.
No, I don't think we can escape jungle law any more than we can erase our
primal self buried in our subconscious...though, perhaps we can bury it
deeper. We are all selfish by nature for example and cannot undo this, even
by unselfish acts.
