On Jul 26, 10:05 pm, Joseph Humming
humanisation.org> wrote:> On Jul 25, 12:18 am, chazwin
yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> On Jul 23, 7:02 pm, Joseph Humming
humanisation.org> wrote:>
>>> On Jul 23, 2:09 am, chazwin
yahoo.com> wrote:>
>>>> Not everything is inevitable, but whatever IS going to happen will
>>>> happen, AND whatever has happened was going to happen anyway.
>>>> This reminds me of a newspaper astrologer who was send his dismissal
>>>> notice from the editor in the form of a letter which read: "Dear Sir,
>>>> as you will no doubt have foreseen..."
>>>> Clearly, although the rest of history is determined to unfold in a
>>>> certain way, there is no easy way to predict what is going to happen.
>>>> This means that even though we are determined, it makes very little
>>>> difference if you believe in free will because none of us can tell the
>>>> future.
>
>>> I disagree. As individuals, we have endless opportunities to decide
>>> which of many roads we may take.
>
>> You had no choice in your genes, No choice where you were born, no
>> choice who your parents were. From day one you had no choice of your
>> environment and cultural influences. By the time you started to make
>> choices, they were based on your character and your experience, you
>> were following the dictates of your will. It may have seemed "free" to
>> you but that is ultimately illusory. Given exactly the same
>> circumstances again you would have made exactly the same choice again.
>> If you think this is wrong then tell me how or why you think you will
>> have chosen differently! Randomness doesn't count.
>> We are all in a succession, a chain of causality. If the universe were
>> not like this then no science would be possible. For everything effect
>> there is a cause. The effect of choice is caused by the volition which
>> is caused by character, environment, genes, upbringing etc. etc.
>
>> The notion of free will is meaningful
>
>>> tp us, notwithstanding the influences that predispose us one way or
>>> the other.
>
>> Whenever I make a choice I follow my volition. Only I can make that
>> choice, but enevitably I make that choice based on whatever desired
>> outcome I am able to imagine - none of this is possible without
>> consulting myself and my experience. I exercise my will to the limits
>> of possibility. The idea that the will is free is a religious myth
>> propagated by priests whose dogma demands that everyone can open the
>> door to Jesus. But that is false. I do not have a free choice in this
>> matter, as I am unwilling or unable to suspend my disbelief concerning
>> a thing I feel (and my experience tells me) is utterly false. God has
>> made so that I am doomed to be damned.
>
>> The inevitability I moot in this posting is a much longer-
>
>>> term thing. I suggest that the forces, chemical or otherwise,
>>> inherent in each of the components, or entities, active in the
>>> succeeding phases of existence - pre-universe,
>
>> Eh?
>
>> universe, earth, life,
>
>>> humanity - . drove that phase towards the conclusion we recognise
>>> today. Thus, for example, the universe is not an "accident".
>
>> Depends what you mean by accident.
>
>> It is the
>
>>> unavoidable outcome of the forces present in the pre-universe
>>> situation,
>
>> That is a determinist position. Not the position of a person that
>> thinks there is a thing called free will.
>
>> whatever that is.
>
> Yes, I say that the five keys stages of existence - the creation of
> the universe, the regularisation of the universe, the origin of life,
> evolution, the arrival of the human being - were mediated by inherent
> forces at each stage. And, of course, our personal pasts play a huge
> role in the choices we make - and indeed in the choices we are capable
> of making. But our cognitive development allowed us to break the chain
> of causality. We have free will, constrained as it may be.
This is a clear case of special pleading bullshit. How and when has
our cognitive development allowed us to overcome the universal law of
causality?
You are suggesting that the mind can overcome the laws of physics. But
by our own evidence we know that this is not so. we are not separate
from the universe but an integral part of it, indivisible, and subject
to its laws. If I had free will I would command a troop of nubile,
naked, beautiful female angels to dance attendance on my every whim.
But in exactly the same way that we are constrained by the limits of
physical possibility, we are also constrained by our own volition, and
when we act we could never have done otherwise.
>
> Actually...working backwards might be
>
>
>
>>> more productive. What kind of prior forces were required to produce
>>> the universe we know? etc
>
>>>> I am a determinism because I am sure that it is true whether you
>>>> beleive in free will or not. Like Nils Boar who when asked why he kept
>>>> a horseshoe on his wall, having stated his disbelief in "luck", said
>>>> that "I am told that it will bring you luck whether you beleive in it
>>>> or not"- Hide quoted text -
>
>> - Show quoted text -
