On Jul 25, 12:43 am, Joseph Humming
humanisation.org> wrote:> On Jul 25, 12:18 am, chazwin
yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> On Jul 23, 7:02 pm, Joseph Humming
humanisation.org> wrote:>
>>> On Jul 23, 2:09 am, chazwin
yahoo.com> wrote:>
>>>> Not everything is inevitable, but whatever IS going to happen will
>>>> happen, AND whatever has happened was going to happen anyway.
>>>> This reminds me of a newspaper astrologer who was send his dismissal
>>>> notice from the editor in the form of a letter which read: "Dear Sir,
>>>> as you will no doubt have foreseen..."
>>>> Clearly, although the rest of history is determined to unfold in a
>>>> certain way, there is no easy way to predict what is going to happen.
>>>> This means that even though we are determined, it makes very little
>>>> difference if you believe in free will because none of us can tell the
>>>> future.
>
>>> I disagree. As individuals, we have endless opportunities to decide
>>> which of many roads we may take.
>
>> You had no choice in your genes, No choice where you were born, no
>> choice who your parents were. From day one you had no choice of your
>> environment and cultural influences. By the time you started to make
>> choices, they were based on your character and your experience, you
>> were following the dictates of your will. It may have seemed "free" to
>> you but that is ultimately illusory. Given exactly the same
>> circumstances again you would have made exactly the same choice again.
>> If you think this is wrong then tell me how or why you think you will
>> have chosen differently! Randomness doesn't count.
>> We are all in a succession, a chain of causality. If the universe were
>> not like this then no science would be possible. For everything effect
>> there is a cause. The effect of choice is caused by the volition which
>> is caused by character, environment, genes, upbringing etc. etc.
>
>> The notion of free will is meaningful
>
>>> tp us, notwithstanding the influences that predispose us one way or
>>> the other.
>
>> Whenever I make a choice I follow my volition. Only I can make that
>> choice, but enevitably I make that choice based on whatever desired
>> outcome I am able to imagine - none of this is possible without
>> consulting myself and my experience. I exercise my will to the limits
>> of possibility. The idea that the will is free is a religious myth
>> propagated by priests whose dogma demands that everyone can open the
>> door to Jesus. But that is false. I do not have a free choice in this
>> matter, as I am unwilling or unable to suspend my disbelief concerning
>> a thing I feel (and my experience tells me) is utterly false. God has
>> made so that I am doomed to be damned.
>
>> The inevitability I moot in this posting is a much longer-
>
>>> term thing. I suggest that the forces, chemical or otherwise,
>>> inherent in each of the components, or entities, active in the
>>> succeeding phases of existence - pre-universe,
>
>> Eh?
>
>> universe, earth, life,
>
>>> humanity - . drove that phase towards the conclusion we recognise
>>> today. Thus, for example, the universe is not an "accident".
>
>> Depends what you mean by accident.
>
>> It is the
>
>>> unavoidable outcome of the forces present in the pre-universe
>>> situation,
>
>> That is a determinist position. Not the position of a person that
>> thinks there is a thing called free will.
>
> Wow! I'm well aware that there is a multiplicity of factors
> predisposing us to act in a particular manner. Some of these - a
> particular illness, for example, or a particular brain-chemistry -
> can't be gainsaid. But the fact remains that over a vast range of our
> behaviour we have the freedom to choose.
You are talking nonsense. Upon what do you base your choice if not
upon the dictates of your self; upon the suggestions of your
experience; and upon the suggestions of you volition. And all these
are modified and determined by your experience, cause upon cause. From
whence doe this spookey notion of freedom emerge?
We may, or may not, listen to
> a particular track; we may, or may not, watch a particular game; we
> may, or may not, apply for a particular post etc etc.In that quite
> comprehensive sense we possess free will.
You are making statements for which no evidentially claim is possible.
If you accpet the possibility of science and the basis upon which all
of its finding depend you a have also to accept that for everything
there is a cause, and cannot arbitrarily make an acception in your
personal case.
>
>
>
>> whatever that is. Actually...working backwards might be
>
>>> more productive. What kind of prior forces were required to produce
>>> the universe we know? etc
>
>>>> I am a determinism because I am sure that it is true whether you
>>>> beleive in free will or not. Like Nils Boar who when asked why he kept
>>>> a horseshoe on his wall, having stated his disbelief in "luck", said
>>>> that "I am told that it will bring you luck whether you beleive in it
>>>> or not"- Hide quoted text -
>
>> - Show quoted text -
