> turtoni wrote:

>> On Aug 11, 2:54 pm, John Jones aol.com> wrote:

>>> turtoni wrote:

>>>> On Aug 10, 7:17 am, John Jones aol.com> wrote:

>>>>> turtoni wrote:

>>>>>> On Aug 8, 9:40 pm, John Jones aol.com> wrote:

>>>>>>> turtoni wrote:

>>>>>>>> Well i respect your opinions John but i guess we'll to agree to
>>>>>>>> disagree.
>>>>>>>> Likely there is an element of truth in both of our broad
>>>>>>>> generalisations from our points of view.

>>>>>>> The two positions are irreconciliable. However -
>>>>>>> I never gave actual examples of my experiences. I have experienced a
>>>>>>> mitigated death and rebirth on psychedelics which entailed a lot of
>>>>>>> enabling positive stuff from the integration of a lot of concerns. Part
>>>>>>> of this experince involved losing my breath and bodily control. It was
>>>>>>> immensely liberating. I have also encountered physical healing from a
>>>>>>> purely physical technique that uses hyperventilation.
>>>>>>> I am also aware that the use of drugs and hyperventilation techniques
>>>>>>> are much more powerful than the illness-modelled (clinical) techniques
>>>>>>> using 'targetted' drug regimes. 'Powerful' in the sense of sheer
>>>>>>> physical impact and also effectual communal integration.
>>>>>>> I am also aware, from many, many, workshops that brought me first hand
>>>>>>> and second hand experiences that, for example, desperate guilt and
>>>>>>> concommitment powerful physical manifestations are easily accesible and
>>>>>>> reveal themselves to be a norm of human experience - I haven't been to a
>>>>>>> workshop where 'dangerous psychotic experiences' are regularly
>>>>>>> encountered as one of the norms of healing. Such experiences are part
>>>>>>> and parcel of a natural, integrative trajectory, for which the disease
>>>>>>> model is out of place.
>>>>>>> In other words, my position is not merely academic.

>>>>>> Rushing "drugs" to the brain for instant gratification seems like a
>>>>>> short term fix with a long term headache;
>>>>>> Lots of complex subjective feelings going on with simple needs to
>>>>>> fill.
>>>>>> Seems kinda lob-sided and ironically perhaps even a fundamental
>>>>>> philosophical force upon the cultures.
>>>>>> the Fast-Drugs.
>>>>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgOWTM5R2DA

>>>>> Gratification is a goal of the disease-modelled clinical view of
>>>>> expeience. I don't go along with that.
>>>>> So I don't believe in rushing drugs to the brain to sort out so-called
>>>>> diseased experiences. I was describing triggers that inititiated natural
>>>>> responses. These triggers can be drugs or anything. They can also be
>>>>> spontaneous such as natural hyperventilation, which your disease model
>>>>> rejects. Now do you understand my position? Do you understand that you
>>>>> are coming from the disease 'model' of experience and that I am not?

>>>> No. Mental illness is mostly widely thought to be about chemical
>>>> imbalances but some mental illness is an actual disease aka
>>>> Alzheimer's.
>>>> Rushing beer or pot or O2 or LSD or food or TV stories or whatever
>>>> into the brain is about thinking that we're creating "good" feelings
>>>> into the brain for an amount of time.
>>>> Boil things down to living in the mist of a simple life, like eating
>>>> nuts and berries and avoiding pumping complex stories into the brain
>>>> would seem to be "healthy" since it keeps things realistic.
>>>> Even driving a car creates a complex socialistic story by which we
>>>> like to abide within.
>>>> I'm pretty complex. I consume vast amounts of "drugs". Likely you do
>>>> too.
>>>> Hence the confusion. Hence the war and peace.
>>>> My brain is sloshing around with these "drugged" up stories. Pumped up
>>>> and down and around and around.
>>>> At times, lots of times i need to be fairly objective with the tools i
>>>> have at hand to support the basic life(s).

>>> Creating good feelings is what the doctors want. I don't want that. I
>>> don't take a clinical, controlling, robotic view of my persona.

>

>> Which is your point of view. You obviously are not acutely mentally
>> ill. You're probably not trying to kill yourself or imagine that
>> everybody is out to get you, etc.

>

>>> You are using popular phrases that don't deliver. Chemicals don't get
>>> out of balance. We can't appeal to chemistry to tell us which
>>> experiences are acceptable and which are not.

>

>> I've generally studied the field and they did trials in the Victoria
>> era in which they thought that mental illness may have been an
>> environmental factor and created places of beauty for the mental ill
>> to reside within without any success. During the 50's they developed
>> the drugs that really had a huge impact on the acutely mentally ill
>> people's quality of life.

>

>>> When you use the term 'chemical imbalance' you are potentially
>>> victimising countless individuals for their behaviour by claiming that
>>> they are broken chemical automatons, and that their brain chemistry
>>> proves it.. Did you ever stop to think how chemistry proves it?

>

>> In the last 10 years they basically closed down the mentally ill
>> institutions because the general population were not prepared to pay
>> for those places or have them on their doorsteps. Now those people
>> live on the streets until they commit a crime. Those are the people
>> you see begging on the streets in the Cardiff city center.

>
> My natural freedom can't be affected by something I can't have - 'mental
> illness'.