> On Aug 11, 2:54 pm, John Jones aol.com> wrote:

>> turtoni wrote:

>>> On Aug 10, 7:17 am, John Jones aol.com> wrote:

>>>> turtoni wrote:

>>>>> On Aug 8, 9:40 pm, John Jones aol.com> wrote:

>>>>>> turtoni wrote:

>>>>>>> Well i respect your opinions John but i guess we'll to agree to
>>>>>>> disagree.
>>>>>>> Likely there is an element of truth in both of our broad
>>>>>>> generalisations from our points of view.

>>>>>> The two positions are irreconciliable. However -
>>>>>> I never gave actual examples of my experiences. I have experienced a
>>>>>> mitigated death and rebirth on psychedelics which entailed a lot of
>>>>>> enabling positive stuff from the integration of a lot of concerns. Part
>>>>>> of this experince involved losing my breath and bodily control. It was
>>>>>> immensely liberating. I have also encountered physical healing from a
>>>>>> purely physical technique that uses hyperventilation.
>>>>>> I am also aware that the use of drugs and hyperventilation techniques
>>>>>> are much more powerful than the illness-modelled (clinical) techniques
>>>>>> using 'targetted' drug regimes. 'Powerful' in the sense of sheer
>>>>>> physical impact and also effectual communal integration.
>>>>>> I am also aware, from many, many, workshops that brought me first hand
>>>>>> and second hand experiences that, for example, desperate guilt and
>>>>>> concommitment powerful physical manifestations are easily accesible and
>>>>>> reveal themselves to be a norm of human experience - I haven't been to a
>>>>>> workshop where 'dangerous psychotic experiences' are regularly
>>>>>> encountered as one of the norms of healing. Such experiences are part
>>>>>> and parcel of a natural, integrative trajectory, for which the disease
>>>>>> model is out of place.
>>>>>> In other words, my position is not merely academic.

>>>>> Rushing "drugs" to the brain for instant gratification seems like a
>>>>> short term fix with a long term headache;
>>>>> Lots of complex subjective feelings going on with simple needs to
>>>>> fill.
>>>>> Seems kinda lob-sided and ironically perhaps even a fundamental
>>>>> philosophical force upon the cultures.
>>>>> the Fast-Drugs.
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgOWTM5R2DA

>>>> Gratification is a goal of the disease-modelled clinical view of
>>>> expeience. I don't go along with that.
>>>> So I don't believe in rushing drugs to the brain to sort out so-called
>>>> diseased experiences. I was describing triggers that inititiated natural
>>>> responses. These triggers can be drugs or anything. They can also be
>>>> spontaneous such as natural hyperventilation, which your disease model
>>>> rejects. Now do you understand my position? Do you understand that you
>>>> are coming from the disease 'model' of experience and that I am not?

>>> No. Mental illness is mostly widely thought to be about chemical
>>> imbalances but some mental illness is an actual disease aka
>>> Alzheimer's.
>>> Rushing beer or pot or O2 or LSD or food or TV stories or whatever
>>> into the brain is about thinking that we're creating "good" feelings
>>> into the brain for an amount of time.
>>> Boil things down to living in the mist of a simple life, like eating
>>> nuts and berries and avoiding pumping complex stories into the brain
>>> would seem to be "healthy" since it keeps things realistic.
>>> Even driving a car creates a complex socialistic story by which we
>>> like to abide within.
>>> I'm pretty complex. I consume vast amounts of "drugs". Likely you do
>>> too.
>>> Hence the confusion. Hence the war and peace.
>>> My brain is sloshing around with these "drugged" up stories. Pumped up
>>> and down and around and around.
>>> At times, lots of times i need to be fairly objective with the tools i
>>> have at hand to support the basic life(s).

>> Creating good feelings is what the doctors want. I don't want that. I
>> don't take a clinical, controlling, robotic view of my persona.

>
> Which is your point of view. You obviously are not acutely mentally
> ill. You're probably not trying to kill yourself or imagine that
> everybody is out to get you, etc.
>

>> You are using popular phrases that don't deliver. Chemicals don't get
>> out of balance. We can't appeal to chemistry to tell us which
>> experiences are acceptable and which are not.

>
> I've generally studied the field and they did trials in the Victoria
> era in which they thought that mental illness may have been an
> environmental factor and created places of beauty for the mental ill
> to reside within without any success. During the 50's they developed
> the drugs that really had a huge impact on the acutely mentally ill
> people's quality of life.
>

>> When you use the term 'chemical imbalance' you are potentially
>> victimising countless individuals for their behaviour by claiming that
>> they are broken chemical automatons, and that their brain chemistry
>> proves it.. Did you ever stop to think how chemistry proves it?

>
> In the last 10 years they basically closed down the mentally ill
> institutions because the general population were not prepared to pay
> for those places or have them on their doorsteps. Now those people
> live on the streets until they commit a crime. Those are the people
> you see begging on the streets in the Cardiff city center.