> It seems incongruous that the religious - Christians - believe in free will.
>
> If a statement was
> "Would you make me a cup of tea - and if you do not I will lop off both your
> arms and throw acid in your face"
> then is the option to make the cup of tea really free will?
>
> The alternative is so bad that you are forced or obliged to make the cup of
> tea.
>
> The same applies in the Christian religion - either you believe in Jesus or
> else.  And the or else is such that you are forced or obliged to believe in
> Jesus.
> I do not really see this as free will.
>
> Free will would be
> "Would you make me a cup of tea - but if you do not it does not matter"
> "You can or cannot obey the commandments and you can or cannot believe in
> Jesus - does not matter - you will be loved and forgiven and go to heaven ...

> "chazwin" yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:de093975-949f-4e17-8738-7190ffe22009@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
> But if they were not threatened with the acid they would choose to
> make the tea based on their motivation and opportunity which are
> determined by genes, environment and circumstances. They would have
> the "will" to make or not make tea , but it would not be free.
> "Free-will" is a myth propogated by the religious upon the dull witted
> so that in a universe where there is a poly-omni god they can still
> "choose" to be saved despite the fact that god has to have known, even
> before they were born, that they were destined to die a saint or a
> sinner.
>
> But surely free will does exist.

> It is clear that we do not have ultimate free will, other wise I would
> be floating on a cloud....

> But surely free will does exist.