"It is disputed whether ethanol as an automotive fuel results in a net
energy gain or loss. As reported in "The Energy Balance of Corn
Ethanol: an Update,"[43] the energy returned on energy invested
(EROEI) for ethanol made from corn in the U.S. is 1.34 (it yields 34%%
more energy than it takes to produce it). Input energy includes
natural gas based fertilizers, farm equipment, transformation from
corn or other materials, and transportation. However, other
researchers report that the production of ethanol consumes more energy
than it yields.[44][45] In comparison, sugar cane ethanol EROEI is at
around 8 (it yields 8 joules for each joule used to produce it).
[citation needed] Recent research suggests that cellulosic crops such
as switchgrass provide a much better net energy production than...

On Jun 21, 8:46 pm, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:

Land ready for growing food is finite.

Energy companies want to use this land to grow plants for fuel.

Any plants will make fuel.

Many plants grow where food cannot grow.

Increasing the amount of plants increases the oxygen in the
atmosphere.

Market forces could create to much good air.

What to do? It is good to see the debate begin to widen and show how
this could change everything around, quick as the market can.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=weKJjknf748

On Jun 22, 1:23 am, Immortalist yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:46:44 -0700, turtoni wrote:

Let's just say alcohol, shall we? Corn is really irrelevant here or
should be considering the wide variety of ways alcohol can be produced.

So, can alcohol produce a net energy gain in terms of auto fuel?
I would guess ummm, yes.

It would also be better than just a guess that this is not really a
"Ethanol Controversy" but a spun "Oil Controversy".

as in:

turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:

No process will result in a net energy gain. That's simple physics.

The important question is wether a particular process is sustainable,
can the system create the fuel as fast as it is used? That is obviously
not true with Gas.

ZerkonX wrote:

Guess again.

Daniel T. wrote:

The only way in the USA to make fuel as fast as it is used is to cut
down on use. Way down.

On Jun 21, 10:38 pm, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:19:53 -0500, John wrote:

OK. umm hell yes?

" Regardless of the inherent differences between gasoline and alcohol,
though, the fact is that alcohols make ideal motor fuels. The first
practical internal combustion engine - patented by Nikolaus...

ZerkonX X.net> wrote:

Guess a third time. *No* energy processing system can produce a net
energy gain. This is physics 101.