>
> An intro: I originally posted this on alt.support.depression nearly a
> year ago (December 29) today. I decided it might fit here as well.
>
> Be interested to say what type of responses I can get. Hopefully
> intelligence discussion will ensue.
>
> (Spoilers: depression, philosophy, religion, etc)
>
> NOTE: I had NO idea when I started this how long it would get. I just
> had a lot to say, and could have easily gone on for several more
> pages, but I think this is more than enough for now.
>
> This is for myself as much as for other people, in a part of trip down
> memory lane and a cautionary tale for religious people who want to
> "advise" and "comfort" those with depression... It's long, but
> hopefully it'll be worth reading.
>
> For those who want to skip the long story and just get to the advice,
> go up to Edit and Find and do a search for an asterisk * and it'll
> take you to the place where the advice starts. (After taking you to
> the one I just printed, of course.)
>
> Several years back I was more religious (or, if you prefer, spiritual)
> than what I am now. It's not something I like to talk about too much
> for various reasons, but I don't know... I feel the need to discuss
> this today (well, "today" being relative, since its taken me several
> days to write this.).
>
> Little over a decade ago, I was invited to a church group by a young
> girl at my high school. I must admit, I mainly went because the girl
> was cute and she had been very nice to me (she said "Hi" to me without
> me even saying that to her first and actually spoke to me, which I
> guess shows you how bad my high school social life was.) The church
> itself was in a non-traditional place (actually it was a building they
> had rented out that I think used to be a factory or something.) I
> hadn't had much church going in my life, so I expecting the
> traditional thing of pews, hymns, wearing fancy clothes etc, etc.
> Course, this was the Friday youth service, but even still, I had never
> been to a church where they had a band, much less one where the lead
> singer played electric guitar, and had upbeat, even dare I say
> "rockin" songs they even had a few secular songs rewritten with
> Christian lyrics. (And yes, there were some other groups who
> considered that blasphemy and irreligious.)
>
> Anyway, this church, I guess was what some would call Fundamentalist,
> although I don't know if that term completely fits. The church taught
> the whole bible (Old and New), they believed in the existence of
> literal demons, angels, speaking in tongues, modern day miracles, and
> that God would heal you of whatever ailment if you believed enough.
>
> To put in context though, all those ideas seemed rather mild to most
> of them when you consider the number people who would tell you about
> the various horrible things in their lives that were and what they
> went through before getting saved. So, the really big miracle from
> their view was how their hearts and minds were changed the being the
> real miracle of God's power, and all the other stuff secondary.
>
> I've heard from people who used to be alcoholics, drug
> dealers/addicts, a few who had been Satanists, and a couple "regular"
> people who just said they had been just "looking for something in
> their lives". These weren't (for the most part) nutty, idiotic
> fanatic people who you see on TV (although some did get rather excited
> during services), but for the most part, they were a polite kind
> bunch, a variety of ages and backgrounds.
>
> I too felt a deep change in my life, a spiritual connection that I
> never had before, and felt that I had finally found the answer I was
> looking for in the meaning of life and whatnot. For the first time in
> a long time, I felt at peace...
>
> Everything was great for the first several months after this profound
> experience. I was going to church regularly, getting to know
> everyone, I felt excited to wake up in the morning and just be alive.
> I quit watching horror films cause I didn't want to think about death
> and darkness anymore, I found a lot of my old "secular" music
> depressing, so I tossed it out and began to listen to only Christian
> contemporary, groups I've never heard of before like Petra, DeGarmo
> and Key, Altar Boys, Carmen, etc. This wasn't something anyone forced
> me to do; it just felt right. I had discovered this great new thing
> and wanted to totally immerse myself in it.
>
> I found myself reaching out to people I normally wouldn't have spoken
> to, trying to be friendly and not judge people on their looks or their
> social status. I toned down my language, (a hard habit at first, but
> go easier over time), I tried to "witness" to other people, telling
> them about God and Christ because I wanted everyone to experience this
> wonderful thing I had discovered.
>
> I was still a bit of a loner in school, I had gone from being picked
> on mercilessly in junior high, to be all put ignored in high school.
> I mean, I could talk to just about anyone from any clique, so I good
> in that sense, but I didn't have anyone I felt close to. Only a few
> people from my church went to my high school (most of the other
> children were usually home schooled) and I didn't really "blend in"
> with all the other seemingly perfect Christians from other churches
> (and some of them I felt a bit disgusted what I perceived to be their
> hypocrisy.) So I had no real friends to turn to during the school
> hours (or after school.)
>
> And then, something happened... I'm not fully sure how or why... but
> the depression I had been dealing with before started to come back, as
> well as the feelings of loneliness and pain. The words of hope and
> inspiration that they would be talking about in services just didn't
> seem to inspire me anymore. Maybe part of it was when my best friend
> in the church left to become a youth minister elsewhere, and I begin
> that realize that a lot of my connection with other young kids my age
> had gone with him.
>
> I mean, the other people were friendly and all, mind you, but for some
> reason my friend (whom I'll call Don), was the only one I really felt
> comfortable sharing my more personal problems with, and just hanging
> around with in general. Plus around this time I got my first job at a
> local fast food joint and had to work a lot. I was one of the few
> people who'd consistently come in when called, so I got called in a
> lot. I started missing a lot of services because I had to work (not
> to mention my grades went down a bit) and things just seemed to change
> over the months I began to see the others less and less.
>
> Or maybe the others didn't change... maybe I did, I don't know. Just
> found myself in a funk more and more often.
>
> -Now, here's the rub, many of the people (most of them well meaning,
> I'm sure), believed that one could, with the power of God, take
> authority over depression (and illness for that matter). The idea
> comes from the New Testament where Jesus rebuked demons over various
> types in his name, and gave that ability to his disciplines, and in
> turn, all future believers to come. (If I had been writing this
> several years back, I could probably quote you chapter and verse where
> this is, but now I'd have to look it up.)
>
> In fact, one of our "main" pastors insisted that's what he did this
> once when depression started creeping back up on him. He said he had
> suffered from it for years (and if even HALF of what he said about his
> childhood and what his dad did to him growing up is true, I can see
> why) but one day he just told it leave in the name of God and it never
> came back.
>
> Course, that didn't seem to work for me, at least not permanently. I
> guess that was a bit of a conundrum for my fellow Christians, how
> could a "real" Christian be depressed so much? Well, obviously said
> person must be holding on to some "secret" sin, or not spending enough
> time with God and thus, their "walk" as a Christian is suffering
> because of this.
>
> And yeah, I guess you could say I had some problems as a Christian...
> I think everyone does, I mean, according to their beliefs, there was
> only ONE perfect Christian (and He died up doing for it). Among other
> things, I guess my main "problem" was with pornography for instance.
> (Course, what I considered a "problem" might have just been "normal
> behavior for a young man my age".) Basically, the problem was I
> looked at porn (didn't have the internet, so at the time it was mainly
> the soft-core movies on late night cable) and occasionally
> masturbated. I felt this wrong because of the whole "...he who looks
> at a girl with lust on his mind has already committed adultery with
> her in his heart." (verse from Matthew, I believe.) Now, some
> Christians are divided on whether or not masturbation (in and of
> itself) is wrong (a few, like James Dobson for instance, don't see a
> problem with it), but all them are pretty much in line on the
> pornography issue.
>
> My best friend at the time, for instance, was in this camp. I think he
> meant well, but I really don't believe he had a genuine understanding
> of what clinical depression is. I mean, he knew that some people had
> chemical imbalances and whatnot, but he seemed to think that too many
> people took medicine for depression just to take them. (And yeah, I'm
> sure that's the case with some people...) So, many times I'd mention
> getting depressed, he would then ask me if I had been "looking at
> certain things" and often I'd have to confess I was, and he'd say
> doing that was destroying myself self-esteem and giving me a distorted
> view on what sex was really for, etc, etc.
>
> He had admitted a few times he also had problems with sexual thoughts
> and stuff (after all, he was just a few year older than I) but he
> didn't get into too many details. I don't know, my friend was kind of
> my idol as far as being what a Christian meant. He had his flaws for
> sure, but they all seemed "minor" and easily forgivable compared to
> mine. Above all us, nothing really seemed to shake his faith in God
> and that things would turn okay. I admired him for that.
>
> But, as the same time, I suppose I also hated and felt a bit of
> jealously towards him, having the loving mom, little brother, the
> pastor uncle, and an entire church of people (later, two churches) who
> seemed to admire and respect him. I guess part of me though, well, of
> course, with all that support, who could one not waver in their faith?
> Everything seems to be going okay for him.
>
> So, over and over I tried to stop it. I'd go as long as I could
> without viewing pornography, or even the sex movies on late cable.
> I'd do my best to quit masturbating (I think my record was about two
> and half weeks, pretty good, I think, for a male around 18 at the
> time.) I'd succeed for awhile, trying to focus on other things, then
> I mess up and feel like crap because I had failed.
>
> Here's the other thing, especially felt bad because I already felt a
> good dose of guilt about masturbating long BEFORE my religious period.
> Not sure why, but I supposed it's most likely because of the sexual
> abuse I had undergone at the hands of a close relative when I was a
> child. I suppose I felt enjoying sex meant I somehow "enjoyed" what
> happened to me back then... its one of those things that even today I
> still occasionally have problems with.
>
> Now, for the record, yeah, I agree, obsessive porn watching can cause
> depression, especially if you're doing it so much you're ignoring
> other things like social interactions and day to day activities and
> whatnot or starting to think that what happens inside pornographic
> films is reality and began expecting too much from your dates,
> partners, or even total strangers. But I think to make a blanket
> statement to blame someone's depression on this or that detail of
> their life is just... well, I can't think of the word for it,
> "oversimplification" I suppose.
>
> NOW, here's the kicker though, and it's taken me YEARS to figure this
> one out... but, I finally remember something about my past that kind
> of blows the lid off the "depression was just cause you're not
> spiritually right with God" type ideas... I remember being depressed
> even as a YOUNG CHILD. Way back before I even knew what porn was.
> Way back before the mood altering chemicals released by puberty and
> all the complexities of adult life.
>
> I remember having weird, existential thoughts as kid, like I need to
> play and do everything I can now because I wasn't going to enjoy being
> an adult. I remember certain songs on the radio making me sad, I
> remember feeling lonely just because it was the weekend and my friends
> weren't there. Not sure what caused it... maybe it was the abuse, or
> maybe I was just lonely, or maybe my brain developed a little
> differently than most people (I've since come to believe I might have
> Aspergers syndrome, which is a form autism). But whatever the reason,
> I can remember being a sad little boy, long before I knew what sex
> was, so there goes that idea.
>
> (May write another post someday detailing the oddness of my childhood,
> but you'll wait on that. UPDATE: Still haven't, although, I've
> explored that issue about on my livejournal.)
>
> Anyway, I hadn't figured that out at the time, so I was still thought
> the whole cause of my depression was the pornography thing, or maybe
> the "not spending enough with God" thing. I've been told that a
> relationship with God was like a relationship with anyone else, you
> have to spend time with them or else you'll drift apart. Spending
> time in this case meant praying (both talking and "listening"),
> reading the Bible, being with other Christians, etc, etc.
>
> But more often than not, it seemed that no matter how "good" of a
> Christian I was, or how time I tried to spend with God, the depression
> kept coming back.
>
> After graduating, I started going to a college in a nearby town, then
> my parents moved and so I stayed here, getting my own apartment. I
> was in another town, on my own for the first time. The town I was in
> was about twenty-five or so minutes away from the church, so went
> there less and less.
>
> Then things really got bad. There was a young lady with whom I had
> been communicating with for over three years mainly through email (we
> had also chatted several times before back when I had had AOL). We'd
> meet during the period I had first discovered online chatting, and I
> had really gotten it. Chatting online felt so much more natural and
> easier for me than real life. You can really get to know someone over
> email, even though we'd never met face to face, I thought of her a
> close friend. She even told me once that if she hadn't been dating
> Selim (her boyfriend) that I would be that type of man she'd want to
> go out. I'd never had a woman tell me that before. Oh sure, several
> girls in high school told me how "nice" and "sweet" I was, but nothing
> more than that.
>
> Then one day I got an email from her mother saying that Sheryl had
> passed away in her sleep. Sheryl had told me weeks earlier that she
> was born with a heart condition (never found out exactly what) but she
> just mentioned it so casually, a side note in one of her sentences. I
> asked her about it and she said, "Yes, it could be fatal, but I don't
> worry about it, I just try to enjoy life one day at a time."
>
> It was the first real death of a close friend I had ever faced. I had
> a step-grandmother pass away some years before, but this felt more raw
> and painful. I know some of my pain was a bit selfish though, as I
> was thinking less of her and wallowing more in my own self-pity. It
> just didn't seem fair that a young girl (she had just graduated from
> high school a few weeks prior) who had so much intelligence, so many
> plans for the future, a loving family and a boyfriend should die when
> a lonely, perpetually unhappy man like myself could keep on living.
>
> More than ever, I felt alone... I tried talking to some of friends and
> family, but most of them didn't really seem to understand the depth of
> my feelings for my "email friend" and few seemed real eager to listen
> to me or my petty problems.
>
> Course, maybe I wasn't being fair to them, I mean, no one can truly
> know what's on someone else's mind unless they tell them... Maybe they
> didn't understand my feelings because I didn't communicate them
> enough. Or maybe they just didn't know what to say to me. I know
> that one of the more hideous things that grief does to a person is
> make them feel like they're totally alone.
>
> At this point I had only been going to my "regular" church just for
> Sunday service, if then. I'd usually arrive a bit late, after the
> "praise and worship" section. Somehow the upbeat songs and the
> slower, more "deep" ones just seemed to ring hollow to me. I just...
> I don't know... I had trouble singing about the greatness of God and
> the "...peace that passes all understanding" when I wasn't feeling it
> myself, and hadn't been for a long time.
>
> Shortly after Sheryl's death, I quit going to my "regular" church
> almost altogether. I'd been busy so much with work I couldn't make
> the Friday "Youth Night" service, or the Wednesday, and I just frankly
> didn't feel like going to the Sunday one. I hadn't given up
> completely mind you; I was occasionally going to special events at
> several local churches. Places where Don knew some people and had
> some friends.
>
> I attended a big youth rally at a local church (local being in the
> town where I now had an apartment), and left feeling more depressed
> than when I came in. I felt sad because I looked and saw all these
> young, handsome kids (well, high schoolers really) they seemed to be
> everything I wasn't, beautiful, energetic, and seemingly having no
> doubts about their faith.
>
> In addition the pastor of the church gave a sermon that reminded me of
> Sheryl, bringing back more memories. Ironically, the pastor himself
> had lost a daughter, about 13 years old. I don't recall the details,
> but she had some sort of medical condition, that caused her to pass
> out and drown while swimming in a local pool with the school swim
> team.
>
> What was interesting to me is how the guy spoke how he got to the
> hospital, found out his daughter had passed away, then went out into
> the waiting room where all her friends from the swim team were and he
> said he told, "Well, if I know Casey, she'd want to see you all again,
> and the only way that's going to happen is if you guys come to know
> Jesus." He said some of them (I'm assuming who were already
> Christians) were shaking their heads, agreeing, and others just looked
> kind of puzzled. He reported happily that two of them got saved from
> that experience.
>
> And despite this, the fellow was rather upbeat; he said something
> along the lines of how he was happy because he knew beyond any doubt
> that he was going to see his little girl again. I'm not sure if I
> admire the man for keeping his faith despite such tragedy, or if I
> think he's a little crazy for still being able to believe after all
> that. Did it ever cross his mind to wonder why God let her die? Or
> did simply think there was a purpose to it all? That maybe she died
> so perhaps two of her friends could get saved? (Or did he maybe feel
> that was just a good result that came from a bad situation but not the
> purpose?)
>
> But, more the point, the whole thing reminded me again of Sheryl,
> another young girl taken before her time. Once again I wondered
> (rather selfishly, I suppose), why so many happy people with loving
> families seem to die, while someone who often wishes he was dead still
> keeps on going...
>
> Again, I know that's kind of a selfish way to look at someone's death,
> especially someone who you claim to have loved, but it's how I felt at
> the time.
>
> Some of the people began to get worried about me. I got a few phones
> calls wanting to know how I was doing. I think maybe the rumors were
> going around I was "having some trouble" or perhaps even "backsliding"
> as it's called. The church wasn't a cult though (although it's been
> accused of such), they didn't go showing up en mass at my door to
> "reprogram" me or some such.
>
> Don in particular knew something was wrong, he began to get a little
> angry at me at times when I'd talk to him and I was being excessively
> negative. At one point he invited me to a play a church was holding
> called "Heaven's Gate, Hell's Fire" he said it was really great. I
> told him I wasn't feeling so well and just didn't want to go (a
> partial truth, I guess), and he's like, "Oh come on, Mike, it'll be
> fun get out of the house for a bit." and I said, "Don, I just not big
> on being around a bunch of people I don't know now." And getting a
> bit angry, "That's not true, Mike, you just don't want to go to a
> church!"
>
> I can't remember what I replied to that, but he was right. I
> especially didn't really want to see play that (I presume) would be a
> rehash of the old "get saved and everything will be great, don't and
> you'll burn forever" blah, blah, blah. Not in my current mood anyway.
>
> By this time I was getting so depressed I had trouble getting out of
> bed. I was missing a lot of college classes. On campus, I was seeing
> a school counselor on occasion, but I don't think he had a clue as to
> how serious my problem was. I heavily contemplated suicide, but
> didn't follow through, maybe for fear of going to hell (not that I
> think that suicide is an automatic ticket there, but that's another
> thread) or the hope that things would get better.
>
> It's ironic, I was talking to Don once about my depression and I'm not
> sure how the subject came but we were talking problems we had before
> getting saved and problems after. And Don said, "Well, Mike, whatever
> you're feeling now, is it worse than what you had before getting
> saved? I know it wasn't for me... Before was always a much worse
> period in my life."
>
> "Is it worse that what you had before getting saved" I thought. Such
> an interesting question, and in a way, yes, it was because, to make a
> comparison it felt like I had found a cure to a disease and somehow it
> seemed to work for everyone BUT me, or at least, worn off on its'
> effects. You can only imagine how despairing that could be. To think
> I'd finally found the answer I'd been searching for my whole life, to
> have felt a joy I couldn't describe and then. bam, it's gone, and I'm
> not sure why it felt or how to get it back.
>
> So now here I am. Trying to figure out what's what and where to go
> from here. It's a strange and often sad place to be in. I really
> don't know what I believe anymore. I believe in God most of the time,
> but WHAT God I believe is a matter of some debate. I do a lot of
> study on different philosophies and religions, trying to find one that
> seems to make sense to me. It's weird... once you've had an
> experience like mine, it never completely leaves you... at least, it
> hasn't me. For instance, I could easily get on a philosophy
> discussion board and take either the side of a Christian or an
> atheist.
>
> I guess that's thing people might find confusing about me, especially
> when I defend religious people, but don't seem to have those beliefs
> myself. Even though I'm not as religious as I once was, I still don't
> like it when I see people trying to eradicate religion from the public
> view. I guess it's my "live and let live" philosophy of things...
>
> Sometimes I think of being agnostic... that is, someone who believes
> simply that the existence of God (or lack thereof) is just improvable
> either way. It would be a bit ironic if I settled on that,
> considering at one point in time I felt that was a bit of a cop out.
> But on the other hand... let's face facts, the only ones who REALLY
> know whether or not God exists are the dead, and they're not talking.
>
> I don't know. I really want to believe there is a life after this, a
> better one. Call me naive, but I don't think I could accept the idea
> that we die and that's it...
>
> So, what can we take from this? I wish I had a nice neat little
> message to wrap it this post up with, like saying I rediscovered my
> faith, or that I found another and I now feel at peace, or that my
> depression is all cleared, both none of those are the case. I still
> battle with depression (meds helped for awhile, but I think I need to
> get my dosage reevaluated), and I'm still not sure what plane
> spiritually (if any) I'm on.
>
> I keep exploring though, studying, learning, seeking and searching. I
> hope that whatever happens after we die the fact I'm still trying find
> answers and do the best I can as a person counts for something.
> Although there sometimes is that nagging fear that I may have turned
> my back on the true thing that could help me. I really don't know...
>
> As for you guys, I appreciate you reading this, if you're wondering
> what to take from it, I'm not really sure. If you yourself have faith
> in something, this is not meant to try and take away from it. I may
> not believe as much as I once did, but I'm not out destroy anyone
> else's faith.
>
> For the non-believers, you might take this as more proof that
> religion's a crock and you might tell me I need to "get over it" and
> whatnot. I can't say I could fully agree with you, I think as people
> there's something in us that seeks something bigger than ourselves, an
> overall meaning to our lives...
>
> As for doubters, the ones in my place, I don't mean this to add to
> your confusion, but I wouldn't mind hearing from you, trading stories
> and stuff. Perhaps together we can figure out what we need to do.
>
> Either way, thanks for reading this.
>
> *
>
> I promised some advice, and now I'll give it. This is for the
> religious types that want to help others with depression and spread
> their beliefs.
>
> 1. For starters, don't assume just cause someone's depressed it's
> because they're living an ungodly life or holding onto secret sin.
> That may be the case, but unless you know for sure you can't just
> assume that. As troubling theologically as the concept of a depressed
> but Godly person might be you, it CAN exist. (Consider Elijah, who,
> even after a big victory prayed to God, "Lord, please take my life.")
>
> Heck, even Jesus wept on occasion.
>
> I'm reminded of how one of my pastors used to refer to Job's friends
> as "turkeys" and coined the phrase "Job's Comforters" to describe
> certain types of people. Basically in the book of Job (another Old
> Testament book, I don't honestly think makes a heck of a lot of sense,
> but that's another thread) Job was righteous man who was struck with a
> series of disasters. He ended up losing his wealth, his home, all his
> children, and was even infected with painful boils. At first, his
> friends just remained silent, knowing how great his grief was. But
> then they began to accuse him of various things, thinking that God
> would never punish a righteous person, so of course Job must have done
> something to offend Him.
>
> Sound familiar? (Not that I'd compare myself to Job, of course, but
> you get the idea.)
>
> 2. Do some research. If you're one of the lucky "normals" that don't
> experience depression unless something bad happens to cause it, then
> do some research on it. At least have some familiarity with the
> subject before you try to spout advice.
>
> 3. Don't do the "you just need to get saved" stuff. Yeah, sharing
> your beliefs is a goal, but not the end result. Sometimes you need to
> just become someone's friend before you can become a good witness. I
> mean, most people aren't going to take advice on spiritual matters (or
> anything else) from total strangers. But a friend, someone they trust
> and know won't lead them wrong.
>
> Plus presenting being saved as the end all and be all solution to
> EVERY problem, is very pretentious at best. You know very well as a
> Christian who's TRUELLY trying to follow the dictates of Christ,
> you're going to have a lot of problems a "normal" person wouldn't.
>
> Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with admitting you
> occasionally have hard times (we all do) and THEN if you want to say
> how you get through with prayer, or singing hymns or whatnot,
>
> 4. Prayer
>
> So you offered to pray for/with someone and they said yes. Your first
> instinct might be to start praying out loud, cause heck, you're not
> ashamed of it. Well, you're friend might be a bit unnerved or even
> embarrassed by that. I'd trying ASKING them first, say something
> like, "Do you mind if I pray for you out loud, right now? I can, if
> you want, or I can prayer silently, right next to you." If he (or
> she) seems okay, go ahead, but you don't have to make a big show out
> of it (yelling loudly, doing a lot of vehement, "In the name of
> JEEEZZ-ZUS!!!" type stuff.) I seriously doubt God is hard of hearing.
>
> And a final piece of advice, this is especially if true you're trying
> to comfort grieving people. Don't try to explain why God took their
> loved one away, and especially don't quote some stupid, cliched
> phrase, like "God wanted a flower for his garden." I'm sorry, but I
> don't know why things happen as they do, but I REALLY doubt God goes
> around murdering people (especially young children) in accidents or
> with random disease just for his own selfish ends.
>
> I'd focus more on God being the comforter, remembering all the good
> memories they're had, stuff like that.
>
> In fact, some of these situations you may not even need to SAY
> anything, just be there to provide comfort and maybe even a shoulder
> to cry on.
>