Lets look at the God the monotheists follow.

The truth stands on it own and does not need massaging for it to be
true. To get at the truth, all we need is test through practical
application.

We can even 'Test God' though such means if you can detach your 'blind
faith' and replace it with a 'rational mind' for a moment.

I'm sure God wont mind if you ask a few question?

Would God send you to hell for just inquiring as to his goodness?

Only an evil God would do such a thing...right?

Would you send another human to everlasting torture just for asking a
question?

How much more good is God than you or I - so don't be worried as long
'your true vision of God' is as 'you imagine' God to be...all
loving..all good.

I don't believe God is evil or good. I just believe the Hebrews
created the myth of Yahweh their God and they injected their own human
shortcomings into the story.

So this evil is just a projection of man's evil when they have no
inner peace and are ego based with hate.

But if I am wrong and such a God Yahweh does exist, I will have to let
Yahweh go and take my lumps as it would not be a God that I wish to
worship as such a God would defy the meaning of love, peace and
humanity.

Is my evaluation of Yahweh arbitrary? Yes, it is subjective, just as
yours is, but if we look to the 'God of Peace' and the 'God of
Nature,' we can find some answers that will help us clarify the
concepts of God as they have been handed down to us.

Would God like the 'golden rule of reciprocity' applied to it?

Would God like being drug out of heaven with fishhooks to stand trial
for war crimes against man?

"Behold, the days are coming upon you When they will take you away
with meat hooks, And the last of you with fish hooks. "You will go
out {through} breaches {in the walls,} Each one straight before her,
And you will be cast to Harmon," declares the LORD. Amos 4:1-3 NAS

Or would god like to make the trip to court in a cushy limo with an
angel by his side for company?

It is very easy to find the truth - all we have to do is apply some
humanity to the problem.

But humans are trained to not think when it comes to God and just
believe, just believe and just believe...for blind faith is the only
way that such delusions can hold up...the devotee must be mentally
blind.

Any animal on the planet would not be so cruel as God is portrayed in
the OT, even the God of Nature does not discriminate against man and
is neutral.

Whenever you think evaluations of evil are arbitrary, apply test such
as; flourishing of the species and universal application to get at the
truth. If we extend our actions to universality and those actions that
destroy our species, they are generally are wrong, No species other
than humans work to destroy themselves.

Would the 'ideal' of a perfect, all loving God approve of the Hebrew
and Christian God Yahweh?

No, the ideal of God would not approve of God if the old testament is
a true accounting of Yahweh.

The evidence shows that the God of the monotheists as written in the
bible is a man made story, whether it is the story of Jesus or the God
Yahweh of the Hebrews.

I write this after being a Catholic for 50+ years. What caused my
change in heart about God? Was it God's refusal to answer a self
centered prayer...No. Was it all the evil in the world...No. My change
in heart with my belief in God came from 'real study' of the dogma and
the books claimed to be the written words of God with a desire to get
closer to God. But, the more I studied, the further from God my
studies took me. But this is only a by product of the study of truth,
for if the study leads to a certain direction one must follow it, if
one is truth based. And if one is not truth based one makes up fantasy
and excuses and lives a delusional life.

If we look at logical and philosophical arguments for God they add up
to zero as each one of these arguments can be argued for or against
God

Ontological Argument +
Ontological Argument (--)
Cosmological Argument +
Cosmological Argument (--)
Teleological Argument +
Teleological Argument (--)
-----------------------------------------
Total = ZERO

As such, we need to look deeper into what the various religions of the
monotheist say to find the truth. There are four books claiming to be
the word of God. they are the Old Testament, New Testament, Qur'an and
the Book of Mormon. (OT, NT, Q and BOM) All these books conflict, yet
all claim to be the perfect word of God? Why doesn't God make clear
which one of these books to follow so there is no misunderstanding?

After all, a mistake in direction yield everlasting torture in hell?
Since God wont answer, we will have to answer for God by asking some
questions to get at the truth that God was invented by man. In short
we will judge God by the ideals of God. Then we can see clearly these
words of God were not written by an all perfect and all loving, all
good God but were just written by men claiming to be God.

Some religious advocates say it is presumptuous of anyone to 'judge'
God. But, such persons also judge God when they say God is good? In
order to judge something good it must still be judged? From my
studies, I have judged God as a creation or fantasy of man's mind and
a God that would refuse to tell the direction for a person to take and
then take joy in torturing that person for a mistake that the person
could not avoid is definitely bad.

God was no always so silent with direction. If we go back to the OT we
can see God communicated extensively with the Hebrews. God directed
them specifically with how to design and build things and how to
worship him through burnt offerings and penance. God was very detailed
with his directions about unclean women during menses and how the
Hebrews should keep their slaves. All quotes courtesy of http://www.evilbible.com/
(BTW, they banned me from their forums...so much for freethinkers.)

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that
the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the
slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the
slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21

God approving of slavery? God not approving of the Egyptians keeping
slaves yet is OK for the Hebrews to keep slaves? Again not a perfect
God. If we read further we will see God very bigoted and condemning of
all other nationalities except his chosen people the Hebrews. What
makes the world think such a bigoted God would accept them when God
had such hatred for others he supposedly created?

If we go to more modern times and the Christian dogma where God
offered his son to be tortured and killed in order for God to forgive
our sins? What do we do when we forgive another? Do we kill our son or
daughter or just forgive? How much more a perfect God could have just
forgiven us without killing his son? But God seemed to emphasize the
killing children in his words to his faithful as we can see in these
OT quotes.

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the
city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy;
have no pity! Kill them all - old and young, girls and women and
little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your
task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy
leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards
with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the
city and did as they were told." Ezekiel 9:5-7

"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will
die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even
if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It
will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have
watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now
Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what
should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't
give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their
wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive
them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no
more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are
stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit.
And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."
Hosea 9:11-16

"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his
father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the
father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town.
They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and
refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the
town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil
from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid."
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

What happened to this vocal God that seemed to die with the authors
of the Old Testament, for no one ever hears a peep from God? Did God
die with the writers? BTW, if God was a perfect designer, should he
have not made women 'unclean' and not have menses and that way God
could have saved some breath and cut his 600+ commandants to the
Hebrew down by one? See: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~adamgosp/otcomm.htm

God even commanded the people how to bake bread, (with human
excrement) discriminate against the handicapped, kill the faithful of
other religions and how much money to pay to rape young women.

Each day prepare your bread as you would barley cakes. While all the
people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as
fuel and then eat the bread. For this is what the LORD says: "Israel
will eat defiled bread in the Gentile lands, where I will banish
them!" Then I said, "O Sovereign LORD, must I be defiled by using
human dung? For I have never been defiled before. From the time I was
a child until now I have never eaten any animal that died of sickness
or that I found dead. And I have never eaten any of the animals that
our laws forbid." "All right," the LORD said. "You may bake your
bread with cow dung instead of human dung." Ezekiel 4:12-15

"No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut
off may be admitted into the community of the Lord." Deuteronomy
23:2

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not
engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he
must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never
be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved
wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other
gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other
nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the
other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon
him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the
first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with
you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you
astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of
Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall
fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." Deuteronomy
13:7-12

Yes, the writers for God's word will be able to show you how the God
they claim to be perfect is not perfect and just an extension of
imperfect man's mind. If you read the bible with an open mind that is
logical and rational you will see this for yourself. It is only when
we make excuses for God that God is relieved from being a true God.

In the OT it says God is a 'jealous God' and requires worship.

"You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in
the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the
earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the
Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their
father's wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the
third and fourth generation" Exodus 20:4-5

Once someone 'requires' anything outside themselves the persons peace
will be disturbed. Yet the popular belief that God is perfect...the
two (jealousy and perfection) don't go together. In addition such a
God would not pass the peace test. If the God did not receive worship
the God's peace would be disturbed from having demands and not getting
those demands fulfilled. Then the God would have its peace disturbed
even further by torturing the person for everlasting eternity since
that person did not provide the worship the God demanded. Does all
this smack of a perfect being, perfectly at peace or just man
impersonating God

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=133.0

You see, many people do with religion and their religious fixations
the same as the compulsive gambler does with their fantasy.

Excerpt From: Gamblers Anonymous pamphlet "The dream world of a
compulsive gambler." A lot of time is spent creating images of great
and wonderful things they are going to do as soon as they make "the
big win."... No one can convince them that their great schemes will
not come true. They believe they will, for without this dream world,
life for them would not be tolerable.

The truth is that which does not change. Man made religion is always
changing. This phenomena of putting a spin on truth goes back to the
earliest formations of the church when it was voted on by presumptuous
individuals as to how to describe God and the trinity. You see it was
all voted on and the proponent that had the 'best spin' on it got the
credit for Nicene Creed. But in reality no one has a clew about this
subject. Want a modern day example of such spiritual sickness, spin
and lies?

"Roman Catholic Church Considers Abolishing Limbo Theory" A commission
that met at the Vatican last week is expected to recommend to Pope
Benedict XVI that the teaching of limbo be dropped. The Roman Catholic
Church may abolish the concept of limbo - the place some Catholics
believe the spirit of babies go if they die before being baptized

Snip from: http://www.christianpost.com/article/20051209/22492.htm

But it is impossible to have a rational discussion with most religious
devotees when they insist on irrationality as their first line of
defense. We are rational beings, logical beings, yet belief in God can
only come about through irrational, non logical thought. Would a God
that created rational, logical beings require such beings to follow
irrational fantasy in order to believe in him?

An example?

While discussing fossils and ancient coal with a Christian he claimed
that fossils and ancient coal are not really old and 'planted by the
devil' to trick people from believing in God? This also recalls the
book of Enoch, a book that was left out of the bible by the powers
that decided what went into it when it was first formed. This book
described many fantastic claims about how Eve was tricked by the devil
masquerading as an angel.

Would God create such subterfuge as planted fake fossils in order to
trick his loved ones only to condom them to burning and torture for
all eternity in hell because they cannot find out the rational and
logical truth? Yes, such an unjust God would if your God is that of a
sickly, delusional, religious devotee that believe is such fantasy.

Even when we discuss the story of Jesus, is it rational for God to
have to kill his only begotten son in order to forgive us? What do we
do when we forgive another? Do we kill our mother, son or daughter in
order to forgive another person? Yet, Christians cling to this
fantasy. Jesus was never born on December 25 and in fact there is no
evidence Jesus was ever born at all. Christians adopted Christmas from
the pagan December 25 holiday in order to promote their own agenda,
just as they did with Halloween.

For further discussion of the Jesus myth see:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/books/jesusmysteries.html
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/myth.html
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/fabrication.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_as_myth
http://home.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/7748/106446
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/stories/s1517078.htm
http://www.atheist-community.org/library/articles/read.php?id=700
http://www.christianorigins.com/goguel/
http://www.bede.org.uk/price1.htm
http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/jesusmyth.html
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/jesus.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/historicus/jesus.html
http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/creator/jesusmyth.htm
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/origins_of_christianity.htm

"Theology is a superstition - Humanity is a religion" - Robert G.
Ingersol

BTW, what does work if all religion is created man made fantasy?

Just dropping God is not the answer for inner peace as this forum is
proof positive of that. With the multitude of spiritually sick
individuals here we can see humans need something in their life to
guide them to peace...at least it is so within our modern society of
sick complexities.

See my previous discussion of this topic of what does work:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

Take care,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2