"Roy Jose Lorr"
comcast.net> wrote in message
news:X7CdnaXOeMcHa1PanZ2dnUVZ_gOdnZ2d@comcast.com...> Linda Lee wrote:
>
>> On Mar 5, 2:29 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>On Mar 4, 6:24 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>>
>>>
>>>>>>On Mar 4, 2:34 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 8:08 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 6:07 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 1:08 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 29, 11:13 am, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 29, 8:04 am, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 26, 1:46 pm, Emma
newsguy.com> wrote:>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've been reading some Jewish views of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesus/Christianity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Here is a view from a Reform Judaism magazine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've just chosen a few paragraphs that interested me, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the link is at the end of the post, if anyone wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to read the rest....
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CHRISTIANITY'S FORGOTTEN JEWS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The heroes of the New Testament were believing Jews--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a historical truth that's been lost in time.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The nature, causes, and timing of the so-called parting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ways between Judaism and Christianity are hotly debated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>among scholars. A few things, however, are universally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>agreed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>upon: although Jesus' first followers were Jews, mostly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Galilee, by 100 C.E. the majority of Jesus sect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>members
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were gentiles living outside of Israel, and by the fifth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>century "Christianity"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had become a fully separate religion
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from "Judaism."
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>How did the Jesus movement stop being Jewish and become
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gentile? A sect that believed that Jesus' resurrection
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>represented the beginning of God's cataclysmic judgment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would hardly have seemed "un-Jewish" in first-century
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Judea,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>where new versions of Judaism, many of them heralding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the apocalyptic end times, emerged regularly, either to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>flourish or to vanish. Certainly, most Jews of the time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>did not consider a now-deceased Galilean preacher named
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesus to have been the messiah; but neither would they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have been offended by someone claiming that he was.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Jesus sect simply offered a variation on the popular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>theme of messianic expectations. The Temple authorities,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of course, would have eyed the sect with suspicion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To the high priests--the Jewish community's liaisons with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rome and, as such, responsible for keeping the peace--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a group that venerated a condemned criminal, a man who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been executed for rebellion against Rome, would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been cause for concern. Yet even those who saw Jesus'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>followers as renegades would have perceived them as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jewish renegades.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Initially (as the books of Acts and Matthew 28:15
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>report),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Jesus movement only sought to reach other Jews.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We know, for example, that a decade or so after Jesus'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>death, when a group of non-Jews from Asia Minor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(modern-day Turkey) wanted to join the sect, the core
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>group in Jerusalem was called upon to decide the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>basis for including gentiles as members.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>They did not reach consensus. Some refused to admit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>non-Jews unless they underwent full conversion to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Judaism,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>which included circumcision for the men; others argued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for their unqualified acceptance and went so far
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as to allow missionaries the authority to grant gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>full membership without circumcision.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Undoubtedly, circumcision was the greatest single barrier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>facing potential male converts to Judaism; in a world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>without antiseptics, circumcision was not only painful
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moreover, most Romans considered the rite to be both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>barbaric and shameful. The Jesus sect's offer of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>circumcision-free membership would therefore have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opened the door to many male "God-fearers"--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gentiles who were already loosely affiliated with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>diaspora
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>synagogues, serving as patrons and observing Jewish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>customs.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>From a modern Jewish perspective, the decision by some
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>within the Jesus movement to accept converts without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>circumcision seems inexplicable. How could observant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jews so easily abandon the rite that had for centuries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been a universal requirement for the conversion of males?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The answer lies in the group's apocalyptic expectations.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Biblical end-day prophecies regularly included visions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the gentiles ("the nations") joining Israel:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Many nations shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in his paths'" (Isaiah 2:3).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesus' followers believed the last days had come.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>What better confirmation than the arrival of gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on their doorstep? And yet, while the ancient prophecies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had predicted the gentiles' arrival, they gave no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>instructions regarding what to do with the gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>once they showed up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Did they need to become Jews, or only to join in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>worshiping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the God of Israel? At first, members of the Jesus sect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>reached different answers on this issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In time, however, as the movement expanded across the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Roman world, those who insisted on full gentile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>conversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>quickly became the minority.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The turning point of when Jewish followers of Jesus became
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>non-Jews
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and Christians is when Christianity proclaimed that Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>came to die
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the cross. If you think for one second, you will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>realize that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>only ones who had a vested interest in this proposition
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were the very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>same Jews who killed Jesus. If they could just claim that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>He came to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>die on the cross according to a NEW religion, then they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would be off
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the hook for killing their own Messiah. Conclusion:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Christians are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dupes of the same Pharisees who killed Jesus. Real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>followers of Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>are still Jews, and if they were never Jews, they are now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jews by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>conversion. Real followers of Jesus contend for the faith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>given to the Patriarchs, and before them to Adam, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>image of HaShem.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>J was a suicide. According to the nt he knew what he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>doing. Would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you have us believe, 'he knew not what he did'? What kind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of god would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that be? A pagan god of course.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>When a soldier throws his body over a bomb to protect his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>buddies, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>generally do not consider this to be suicide. Certainly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>who died knowingly went to his death, but because he gave
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>his life for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>another it is considered to be the highest form of self
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sacrifice. Do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you disagree?
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Human sacrificial, killing of oneself for whatever reason is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>suicide.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You can call it that if you want. Is there something else you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>implying by that term?
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>All I mean is J was a suicide... an evil act in the eyes of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moses' God.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Sacrificing oneself for another is not considered to be evil in
>>>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>>Bible. It is considered to be the highest expression of love.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>The Bible you refer to is not the Bible of Moses' God which is:
>>>>>>>>>>>the Five
>>>>>>>>>>>Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy) wherein it is commanded
>>>>>>>>>>>that no
>>>>>>>>>>>one may make sacrifice for another. How ever you slice it
>>>>>>>>>>>suicide is
>>>>>>>>>>>human sacrifice... unacceptable under any circumstances to Moses'
>>>>>>>>>>>God.
>>>>>>>>>>>Moses' God does not permit the sacrifice by means of suicide of
>>>>>>>>>>>one
>>>>>>>>>>>human life for another or many other human lives. To hazard
>>>>>>>>>>>one's life
>>>>>>>>>>>and die in mortal combat in defense of one's own is another
>>>>>>>>>>>matter.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Which passage would it be that you are getting this "gem" from?
>>>
>>>>>>>>>Try reading the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy), then
>>>>>>>>>ask
>>>>>>>>>the question again.
>>>
>>>>>>>>I assume you I have. Somehow I missed what you are referring to
>>>>>>>>(not
>>>>>>>>that I remember everything). Please provide a passage. If not
>>>>>>>>please
>>>>>>>>provide a reason why you cannot provide a passage. Or do whatever
>>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>want.
>>>
>>>>>>>There are many more examples but these two should suffice. 1.
>>>>>>>Suicide
>>>>>>>goes against the command to "be fruitful and multiply". 2. It also
>>>>>>>goes
>>>>>>>against the command to 'have dominion over the Earth and its
>>>>>>>creatures'.
>>>>>>>A suicide can fulfill neither of these Laws, only the living can.
>>>
>>>>>>>Though there are many ways listed of dying naturally or
>>>
>>>...
>>>
>>>read more В»
>>
>>
>> There is the difference that suicides generally commit suicide to
>> avoid additional suffering in this world. That was not the purpose of
>> the incarnation and death of the Messiah; his intention was to end
>> death and suffering.
>
I can't keep track but whoever wrote the above. You think that death and
suffering is an entity more powerful than Hashem? Heretical thinking!!!!
You think that suffering is some sort of misery from the "other" higher
power called the Sitra Achra? I call it quick rectification for voluntary
trangression.
You just want someone else to do your work, grow your potential into the
finished product.
There are two farmers. Farmer one was told by Creflo Dollar that if he
calls for a new Jet plane, it will come. If it doesn't come, then he didn't
believe hard enough.
Farmer two spends his first two years studying agriculture and plants his
first field. He works his fingers to the bone and makes mistakes, but he
doesn't commit suicide, he keeps going...all the way is a very long way!!!
After fifteen years, the first farmer is working a menial job just calling
jet planes and the second farmer reaps the perfect harvest. But next year,
he knows he will have to work even harder. He then learns a Bracha for
Bikkurim and notices that his fruit doubles triples.
Hey this is no joke. I have had these dud apple trees for years and we have
had a bee shortage around here. My neighbor actually go so frustrated that
he cut down his trees (which is forbidden as far a halacha because they were
still bearing). I start saying a Brocha on the first fruits and you would
be amazed at the quantity of the apples. Massive apples on what I thought
were dead trees. Last year my neighbor came over and I told him what I did
and shirk his shoulders at me, Just didn't get it. For four years I have
had massive quantities of apples.
But they are sour...oh well. That was grampas fault, he picked the wrong
variety, but they make nice pie.
