Linda Lee wrote:
> On Mar 5, 2:29 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:
> >>>On Mar 4, 6:24 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>On Mar 4, 2:34 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 8:08 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 6:07 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 1:08 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 29, 11:13 am, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 29, 8:04 am, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 26, 1:46 pm, Emma
newsguy.com> wrote:>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've been reading some Jewish views of Jesus/Christianity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Here is a view from a Reform Judaism magazine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've just chosen a few paragraphs that interested me, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the link is at the end of the post, if anyone wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to read the rest....
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CHRISTIANITY'S FORGOTTEN JEWS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The heroes of the New Testament were believing Jews--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a historical truth that's been lost in time.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The nature, causes, and timing of the so-called parting of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ways between Judaism and Christianity are hotly debated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>among scholars. A few things, however, are universally agreed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>upon: although Jesus' first followers were Jews, mostly from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Galilee, by 100 C.E. the majority of Jesus sect members
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were gentiles living outside of Israel, and by the fifth century "Christianity"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had become a fully separate religion
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from "Judaism."
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>How did the Jesus movement stop being Jewish and become
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gentile? A sect that believed that Jesus' resurrection
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>represented the beginning of God's cataclysmic judgment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would hardly have seemed "un-Jewish" in first-century Judea,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>where new versions of Judaism, many of them heralding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the apocalyptic end times, emerged regularly, either to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>flourish or to vanish. Certainly, most Jews of the time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>did not consider a now-deceased Galilean preacher named
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesus to have been the messiah; but neither would they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have been offended by someone claiming that he was.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Jesus sect simply offered a variation on the popular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>theme of messianic expectations. The Temple authorities,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of course, would have eyed the sect with suspicion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To the high priests--the Jewish community's liaisons with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rome and, as such, responsible for keeping the peace--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a group that venerated a condemned criminal, a man who had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been executed for rebellion against Rome, would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been cause for concern. Yet even those who saw Jesus'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>followers as renegades would have perceived them as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jewish renegades.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Initially (as the books of Acts and Matthew 28:15 report),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Jesus movement only sought to reach other Jews.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We know, for example, that a decade or so after Jesus'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>death, when a group of non-Jews from Asia Minor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(modern-day Turkey) wanted to join the sect, the core
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>group in Jerusalem was called upon to decide the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>basis for including gentiles as members.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>They did not reach consensus. Some refused to admit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>non-Jews unless they underwent full conversion to Judaism,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>which included circumcision for the men; others argued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for their unqualified acceptance and went so far
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as to allow missionaries the authority to grant gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>full membership without circumcision.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Undoubtedly, circumcision was the greatest single barrier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>facing potential male converts to Judaism; in a world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>without antiseptics, circumcision was not only painful
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moreover, most Romans considered the rite to be both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>barbaric and shameful. The Jesus sect's offer of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>circumcision-free membership would therefore have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opened the door to many male "God-fearers"--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gentiles who were already loosely affiliated with diaspora
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>synagogues, serving as patrons and observing Jewish customs.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>From a modern Jewish perspective, the decision by some
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>within the Jesus movement to accept converts without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>circumcision seems inexplicable. How could observant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jews so easily abandon the rite that had for centuries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been a universal requirement for the conversion of males?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The answer lies in the group's apocalyptic expectations.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Biblical end-day prophecies regularly included visions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the gentiles ("the nations") joining Israel:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Many nations shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in his paths'" (Isaiah 2:3).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesus' followers believed the last days had come.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>What better confirmation than the arrival of gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on their doorstep? And yet, while the ancient prophecies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had predicted the gentiles' arrival, they gave no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>instructions regarding what to do with the gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>once they showed up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Did they need to become Jews, or only to join in worshiping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the God of Israel? At first, members of the Jesus sect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>reached different answers on this issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In time, however, as the movement expanded across the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Roman world, those who insisted on full gentile conversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>quickly became the minority.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The turning point of when Jewish followers of Jesus became non-Jews
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and Christians is when Christianity proclaimed that Jesus came to die
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the cross. If you think for one second, you will realize that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>only ones who had a vested interest in this proposition were the very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>same Jews who killed Jesus. If they could just claim that He came to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>die on the cross according to a NEW religion, then they would be off
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the hook for killing their own Messiah. Conclusion: Christians are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dupes of the same Pharisees who killed Jesus. Real followers of Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>are still Jews, and if they were never Jews, they are now Jews by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>conversion. Real followers of Jesus contend for the faith that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>given to the Patriarchs, and before them to Adam, the image of HaShem.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>J was a suicide. According to the nt he knew what he was doing. Would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you have us believe, 'he knew not what he did'? What kind of god would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that be? A pagan god of course.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>When a soldier throws his body over a bomb to protect his buddies, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>generally do not consider this to be suicide. Certainly the person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>who died knowingly went to his death, but because he gave his life for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>another it is considered to be the highest form of self sacrifice. Do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you disagree?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Human sacrificial, killing of oneself for whatever reason is suicide.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>You can call it that if you want. Is there something else you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>implying by that term?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>All I mean is J was a suicide... an evil act in the eyes of Moses' God.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Sacrificing oneself for another is not considered to be evil in the
>>>>>>>>>>>Bible. It is considered to be the highest expression of love.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>The Bible you refer to is not the Bible of Moses' God which is: the Five
>>>>>>>>>>Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy) wherein it is commanded that no
>>>>>>>>>>one may make sacrifice for another. How ever you slice it suicide is
>>>>>>>>>>human sacrifice... unacceptable under any circumstances to Moses' God.
>>>>>>>>>>Moses' God does not permit the sacrifice by means of suicide of one
>>>>>>>>>>human life for another or many other human lives. To hazard one's life
>>>>>>>>>>and die in mortal combat in defense of one's own is another matter.
>>
>>>>>>>>>Which passage would it be that you are getting this "gem" from?
>>
>>>>>>>>Try reading the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy), then ask
>>>>>>>>the question again.
>>
>>>>>>>I assume you I have. Somehow I missed what you are referring to (not
>>>>>>>that I remember everything). Please provide a passage. If not please
>>>>>>>provide a reason why you cannot provide a passage. Or do whatever you
>>>>>>>want.
>>
>>>>>>There are many more examples but these two should suffice. 1. Suicide
>>>>>>goes against the command to "be fruitful and multiply". 2. It also goes
>>>>>>against the command to 'have dominion over the Earth and its creatures'.
>>>>>>A suicide can fulfill neither of these Laws, only the living can.
>>
>>>>>>Though there are many ways listed of dying naturally or
>>
>>...
>>
>>read more В»
>
>
> There is the difference that suicides generally commit suicide to
> avoid additional suffering in this world. That was not the purpose of
> the incarnation and death of the Messiah; his intention was to end
> death and suffering.
And did he?
