On Mar 5, 2:29 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>> On Mar 4, 6:24 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>
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>>>>On Mar 4, 2:34 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>
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>>>>>>On Mar 3, 8:08 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>
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>>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 6:07 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>
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>>>>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 1:08 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 29, 11:13 am, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 29, 8:04 am, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 26, 1:46 pm, Emma
newsguy.com> wrote:>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've been reading some Jewish views of Jesus/Christianity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Here is a view from a Reform Judaism magazine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've just chosen a few paragraphs that interested me, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the link is at the end of the post, if anyone wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to read the rest....
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CHRISTIANITY'S FORGOTTEN JEWS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The heroes of the New Testament were believing Jews--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a historical truth that's been lost in time.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The nature, causes, and timing of the so-called parting of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ways between Judaism and Christianity are hotly debated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>among scholars. A few things, however, are universally agreed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>upon: although Jesus' first followers were Jews, mostly from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Galilee, by 100 C.E. the majority of Jesus sect members
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were gentiles living outside of Israel, and by the fifth century "Christianity"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had become a fully separate religion
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from "Judaism."
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>How did the Jesus movement stop being Jewish and become
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gentile? A sect that believed that Jesus' resurrection
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>represented the beginning of God's cataclysmic judgment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would hardly have seemed "un-Jewish" in first-century Judea,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>where new versions of Judaism, many of them heralding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the apocalyptic end times, emerged regularly, either to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>flourish or to vanish. Certainly, most Jews of the time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>did not consider a now-deceased Galilean preacher named
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesus to have been the messiah; but neither would they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have been offended by someone claiming that he was.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Jesus sect simply offered a variation on the popular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>theme of messianic expectations. The Temple authorities,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of course, would have eyed the sect with suspicion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To the high priests--the Jewish community's liaisons with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rome and, as such, responsible for keeping the peace--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a group that venerated a condemned criminal, a man who had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been executed for rebellion against Rome, would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been cause for concern. Yet even those who saw Jesus'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>followers as renegades would have perceived them as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jewish renegades.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Initially (as the books of Acts and Matthew 28:15 report),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Jesus movement only sought to reach other Jews.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We know, for example, that a decade or so after Jesus'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>death, when a group of non-Jews from Asia Minor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(modern-day Turkey) wanted to join the sect, the core
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>group in Jerusalem was called upon to decide the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>basis for including gentiles as members.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>They did not reach consensus. Some refused to admit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>non-Jews unless they underwent full conversion to Judaism,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>which included circumcision for the men; others argued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for their unqualified acceptance and went so far
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as to allow missionaries the authority to grant gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>full membership without circumcision.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Undoubtedly, circumcision was the greatest single barrier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>facing potential male converts to Judaism; in a world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>without antiseptics, circumcision was not only painful
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moreover, most Romans considered the rite to be both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>barbaric and shameful. The Jesus sect's offer of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>circumcision-free membership would therefore have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opened the door to many male "God-fearers"--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gentiles who were already loosely affiliated with diaspora
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>synagogues, serving as patrons and observing Jewish customs.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>From a modern Jewish perspective, the decision by some
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>within the Jesus movement to accept converts without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>circumcision seems inexplicable. How could observant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jews so easily abandon the rite that had for centuries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been a universal requirement for the conversion of males?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The answer lies in the group's apocalyptic expectations.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Biblical end-day prophecies regularly included visions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the gentiles ("the nations") joining Israel:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Many nations shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in his paths'" (Isaiah 2:3).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesus' followers believed the last days had come.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>What better confirmation than the arrival of gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on their doorstep? And yet, while the ancient prophecies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had predicted the gentiles' arrival, they gave no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>instructions regarding what to do with the gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>once they showed up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Did they need to become Jews, or only to join in worshiping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the God of Israel? At first, members of the Jesus sect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>reached different answers on this issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In time, however, as the movement expanded across the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Roman world, those who insisted on full gentile conversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>quickly became the minority.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The turning point of when Jewish followers of Jesus became non-Jews
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and Christians is when Christianity proclaimed that Jesus came to die
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the cross. If you think for one second, you will realize that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>only ones who had a vested interest in this proposition were the very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>same Jews who killed Jesus. If they could just claim that He came to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>die on the cross according to a NEW religion, then they would be off
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the hook for killing their own Messiah. Conclusion: Christians are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dupes of the same Pharisees who killed Jesus. Real followers of Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>are still Jews, and if they were never Jews, they are now Jews by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>conversion. Real followers of Jesus contend for the faith that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>given to the Patriarchs, and before them to Adam, the image of HaShem.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>J was a suicide. According to the nt he knew what he was doing. Would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you have us believe, 'he knew not what he did'? What kind of god would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that be? A pagan god of course.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>When a soldier throws his body over a bomb to protect his buddies, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>generally do not consider this to be suicide. Certainly the person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>who died knowingly went to his death, but because he gave his life for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>another it is considered to be the highest form of self sacrifice. Do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you disagree?
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>Human sacrificial, killing of oneself for whatever reason is suicide.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>You can call it that if you want. Is there something else you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>implying by that term?
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>>>>>>>>>>>All I mean is J was a suicide... an evil act in the eyes of Moses' God.
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>>>>>>>>>>Sacrificing oneself for another is not considered to be evil in the
>>>>>>>>>>Bible. It is considered to be the highest expression of love.
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>>>>>>>>>The Bible you refer to is not the Bible of Moses' God which is: the Five
>>>>>>>>>Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy) wherein it is commanded that no
>>>>>>>>>one may make sacrifice for another. How ever you slice it suicide is
>>>>>>>>>human sacrifice... unacceptable under any circumstances to Moses' God.
>>>>>>>>>Moses' God does not permit the sacrifice by means of suicide of one
>>>>>>>>>human life for another or many other human lives. To hazard one's life
>>>>>>>>>and die in mortal combat in defense of one's own is another matter.
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>>>>>>>>Which passage would it be that you are getting this "gem" from?
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>>>>>>>Try reading the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy), then ask
>>>>>>>the question again.
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>>>>>>I assume you I have. Somehow I missed what you are referring to (not
>>>>>>that I remember everything). Please provide a passage. If not please
>>>>>>provide a reason why you cannot provide a passage. Or do whatever you
>>>>>>want.
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>>>>>There are many more examples but these two should suffice. 1. Suicide
>>>>>goes against the command to "be fruitful and multiply". 2. It also goes
>>>>>against the command to 'have dominion over the Earth and its creatures'.
>>>>> A suicide can fulfill neither of these Laws, only the living can.
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>>>>>Though there are many ways listed of dying naturally or
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There is the difference that suicides generally commit suicide to
avoid additional suffering in this world. That was not the purpose of
the incarnation and death of the Messiah; his intention was to end
death and suffering.
