> On Mar 5, 12:45 pm, "Mary Hogan"
zoominternet.net> wrote:>>> On Mar 4, 6:24 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>>>> On Mar 4, 2:34 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 8:08 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 6:07 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Mar 3, 1:08 pm, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net> wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 29, 11:13 am, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 29, 8:04 am, Roy Jose Lorr
comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Feb 26, 1:46 pm, Emma
newsguy.com> wrote:>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've been reading some Jewish views of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesus/Christianity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Here is a view from a Reform Judaism magazine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've just chosen a few paragraphs that interested me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the link is at the end of the post, if anyone wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to read the rest....
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CHRISTIANITY'S FORGOTTEN JEWS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The heroes of the New Testament were believing Jews--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a historical truth that's been lost in time.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The nature, causes, and timing of the so-called parting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ways between Judaism and Christianity are hotly debated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>among scholars. A few things, however, are universally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>agreed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>upon: although Jesus' first followers were Jews, mostly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Galilee, by 100 C.E. the majority of Jesus sect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>members
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were gentiles living outside of Israel, and by the fifth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>century "Christianity"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had become a fully separate religion
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from "Judaism."
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>How did the Jesus movement stop being Jewish and become
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gentile? A sect that believed that Jesus' resurrection
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>represented the beginning of God's cataclysmic judgment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would hardly have seemed "un-Jewish" in first-century
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Judea,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>where new versions of Judaism, many of them heralding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the apocalyptic end times, emerged regularly, either to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>flourish or to vanish. Certainly, most Jews of the time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>did not consider a now-deceased Galilean preacher named
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesus to have been the messiah; but neither would they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have been offended by someone claiming that he was.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Jesus sect simply offered a variation on the popular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>theme of messianic expectations. The Temple authorities,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of course, would have eyed the sect with suspicion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To the high priests--the Jewish community's liaisons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rome and, as such, responsible for keeping the peace--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a group that venerated a condemned criminal, a man who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been executed for rebellion against Rome, would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been cause for concern. Yet even those who saw Jesus'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>followers as renegades would have perceived them as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jewish renegades.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Initially (as the books of Acts and Matthew 28:15
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>report),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Jesus movement only sought to reach other Jews.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We know, for example, that a decade or so after Jesus'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>death, when a group of non-Jews from Asia Minor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(modern-day Turkey) wanted to join the sect, the core
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>group in Jerusalem was called upon to decide the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>basis for including gentiles as members.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>They did not reach consensus. Some refused to admit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>non-Jews unless they underwent full conversion to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Judaism,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>which included circumcision for the men; others argued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for their unqualified acceptance and went so far
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as to allow missionaries the authority to grant gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>full membership without circumcision.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Undoubtedly, circumcision was the greatest single
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>barrier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>facing potential male converts to Judaism; in a world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>without antiseptics, circumcision was not only painful
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moreover, most Romans considered the rite to be both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>barbaric and shameful. The Jesus sect's offer of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>circumcision-free membership would therefore have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opened the door to many male "God-fearers"--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gentiles who were already loosely affiliated with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>diaspora
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>synagogues, serving as patrons and observing Jewish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>customs.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>From a modern Jewish perspective, the decision by some
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>within the Jesus movement to accept converts without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>circumcision seems inexplicable. How could observant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jews so easily abandon the rite that had for centuries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been a universal requirement for the conversion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>males?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The answer lies in the group's apocalyptic expectations.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Biblical end-day prophecies regularly included visions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the gentiles ("the nations") joining Israel:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Many nations shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>walk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in his paths'" (Isaiah 2:3).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesus' followers believed the last days had come.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>What better confirmation than the arrival of gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on their doorstep? And yet, while the ancient prophecies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had predicted the gentiles' arrival, they gave no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>instructions regarding what to do with the gentiles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>once they showed up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Did they need to become Jews, or only to join in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>worshiping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the God of Israel? At first, members of the Jesus sect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>reached different answers on this issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In time, however, as the movement expanded across the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Roman world, those who insisted on full gentile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>conversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>quickly became the minority.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The turning point of when Jewish followers of Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>became
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>non-Jews
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and Christians is when Christianity proclaimed that Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>came to die
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the cross. If you think for one second, you will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>realize
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>only ones who had a vested interest in this proposition
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>same Jews who killed Jesus. If they could just claim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>He came to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>die on the cross according to a NEW religion, then they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would be off
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the hook for killing their own Messiah. Conclusion:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Christians are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dupes of the same Pharisees who killed Jesus. Real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>followers of Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>are still Jews, and if they were never Jews, they are now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jews by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>conversion. Real followers of Jesus contend for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>faith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>given to the Patriarchs, and before them to Adam, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>image
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of HaShem.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>J was a suicide. According to the nt he knew what he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>doing. Would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you have us believe, 'he knew not what he did'? What kind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>god would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that be? A pagan god of course.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>When a soldier throws his body over a bomb to protect his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>buddies, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>generally do not consider this to be suicide. Certainly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>who died knowingly went to his death, but because he gave
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>life for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>another it is considered to be the highest form of self
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sacrifice. Do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you disagree?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Human sacrificial, killing of oneself for whatever reason is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>suicide.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>You can call it that if you want. Is there something else
>>>>>>>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>implying by that term?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>All I mean is J was a suicide... an evil act in the eyes of
>>>>>>>>>>>>Moses' God.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Sacrificing oneself for another is not considered to be evil in
>>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>Bible. It is considered to be the highest expression of love.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>The Bible you refer to is not the Bible of Moses' God which is:
>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>Five
>>>>>>>>>>Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy) wherein it is commanded
>>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>no
>>>>>>>>>>one may make sacrifice for another. How ever you slice it
>>>>>>>>>>suicide
>>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>>human sacrifice... unacceptable under any circumstances to
>>>>>>>>>>Moses'
>>>>>>>>>>God.
>>>>>>>>>>Moses' God does not permit the sacrifice by means of suicide of
>>>>>>>>>>one
>>>>>>>>>>human life for another or many other human lives. To hazard
>>>>>>>>>>one's
>>>>>>>>>>life
>>>>>>>>>>and die in mortal combat in defense of one's own is another
>>>>>>>>>>matter.
>>
>>>>>>>>>Which passage would it be that you are getting this "gem" from?
>>
>>>>>>>>Try reading the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy), then
>>>>>>>>ask
>>>>>>>>the question again.
>>
>>>>>>>I assume you I have. Somehow I missed what you are referring to
>>>>>>>(not
>>>>>>>that I remember everything). Please provide a passage. If not
>>>>>>>please
>>>>>>>provide a reason why you cannot provide a passage. Or do whatever
>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>want.
>>
>>>>>>There are many more examples but these two should suffice. 1.
>>>>>>Suicide
>>>>>>goes against the command to "be fruitful and multiply". 2. It also
>>>>>>goes
>>>>>>against the command to 'have dominion over the Earth and its
>>>>>>creatures'.
>>>>>> A suicide can fulfill neither of these Laws, only the living can.
>>
>>>>>>Though there are many ways listed of dying naturally or unnaturally
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>Written Torah (Genesis - Deuteronomy), suicide (murdering oneself)
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>not one of them.
>>
>>>>> I agree with you with regards to suicide. However, you claimed that
>>>>> sacrificing yourself for another was suicide and that you had
>>>>> backing
>>>>> for this definition in the Bible.
>>
>>>> I am not your teacher. The many admonitions against human sacrifice
>>>> either of oneself or others for the sake of appeasing gods or for any
>>>> other reason whatsoever is easily found on your own in Written Torah
>>>> (Genesis - Deuteronomy).
>>
>>> You keep saying that, but I am aware of know admonitions against
>>> sacrificing oneself for another. (the other categories I agree with
>>> you)
>>
>>> In fact the concept of redemption (paying the cost to redeem/save
>>> another) is found in the Bible.
>>
>> Let's discuss this. You bring up chapter and verse, and we'll discuss
>> the
>> concept of redemption. Paying the cost to redeem and then your slash
>> which
>> is depictive of your misguidedness and you Applewhitian message. You say
>> boldly, "is found in the Bible." We then put it on the table and we will
>> all discuss your concept, instead of the shell of understanding that
>> half-baked teachers have led you to believe is enough.
>>
>> In other words, we will both put our money where our mouth is.
>
> Can we first agree on a definition.
>
> Redemption: 1.) to free from bondage or a debt,
Yep
2.) to pay a price to
> redeem an object that was lost or is going to be lost.
>
> The first five books of the Bible have three direct references to
> redemption.
>
> Lev 25:47-55 (a self-imposed slaves right to become free during the
> year of jubilee)
I know that one very well, and the Jew that takes in such a slave actually
becomes a slave to the slave in that he must provide the slave with equal
accomodations, and the rules are brutal
> Ex 21:28-32 (someone redeeming someone else from a sentence of death
> due to mismanagement of an Ox)
Yep, we can go into depth with this.
> Lev 25:25-28 (redeeming a piece of land that was part of a families
> inheritance but was sold (or is going to be sold) by a different
> family member)
You don't understand, Michael. What you are showing is the beauty of the
Jewish people and the depths they will go to please Hashem and it is a clue
to Klal Yisroel being "one" and not a family of individuals.
I've studied these very well, although halacha is out of the scope of my
prowess, but I learn bit by bit.
>
> However, the concept of redemption can be seen in other stories.
GET OVER THE "STORY" MENTALITY, MICHAEL. It shows your level, and with your
brains this is not complementary.
>
> God's freeing of the Israelites out of Egypt
Yes, and Who did it, Michael? Hashem Himself, and this debunks the story
that he has to cow tow to the Sitra Achra, kill Himself and go to Gehinnom.
Your sorry religion depends on Sinai.
>
> Abraham's freeing of his cousin Lot from the 10 kings.
See pull these learnings out to prove that Yeshke was anything more than a
"bad Jew." I use this learning every day.
>
> One of the best accounts of redemption (in the old testament) of
> course is Ruth.
The Testament is not old. We could discuss Ruth for days.
>
> And one of the most graphic accounts of a (then) future redemption can
> be found is Isaiah 53.
>
> And one of the most poignant pictures of redemption is Hosea and his
> wife Gomer.
Here is another learning that is so deep and yet you think you can throw it
on a list. Now, if you want to work on Gomer or Ruth and the concept and
I'm blanking on the word, which I know so well about the situation with
Tamar and Jehudah also. Darn it, I can't remember the word. I actually
have to look it up, its Leverite marriage, BRB
>
> By the way who is Applewhitian?
>
