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Author: turtoniturtoni Date: Oct 28, 2007 16:17
"Christianised rituals were among the cultural features of the
Mediterranean world that were adapted by the Early Christians, as part
of the thorough-going Christianization of pagan culture, which
included the landscape (see Christianised sites) and the calendar (see
Christianised calendar). The obvious connection to Jewish rituals of
Christian practices such as the Eucharist and Baptism, is often argued
to be by design. Christian tradition places these Christian use of
these activities as having originated in the life of Jesus, as
attested by the Biblical narratives (e.g. the Baptism of Jesus for
Baptism, and Last Supper for the Eucharist), and the Biblical
incidents are said to be examples of Jewish ritual (e.g. Baptism as
ritual cleansing, and the Last Supper as a passover seder). However,
these practices are also present in several non-Christian, non-Jewish,
ancient religions, a fact that made several church fathers
uncomfortable. So similar were the practices of major rivals, such as
Mithraism, and so obviously did they occur before the existence of
Christianity, and unconnected to Judaism, that church fathers such as
Tertullian and Justin Martyr argued that Satan himself had given the
rituals to the rival religions, as a sort-of prophetic mockery.
According to several secular scholars, the fact that even early ...
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Author: turtoniturtoni Date: Oct 28, 2007 16:27
On Oct 28, 7:17 pm, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:> "Christianised rituals were among the cultural features of the
> Mediterranean world that were adapted by the Early Christians, as part
> of the thorough-going Christianization of pagan culture, which
> included the landscape (see Christianised sites) and the calendar (see
> Christianised calendar). The obvious connection to Jewish rituals of
> Christian practices such as the Eucharist and Baptism, is often argued
> to be by design. Christian tradition places these Christian use of
> these activities as having originated in the life of Jesus, as
> attested by the Biblical narratives (e.g. the Baptism of Jesus for
> Baptism, and Last Supper for the Eucharist), and the Biblical
> incidents are said to be examples of Jewish ritual (e.g. Baptism as
> ritual cleansing, and the Last Supper as a passover seder). However,
> these practices are also present in several non-Christian, non-Jewish,
> ancient religions, a fact that made several church fathers
> uncomfortable. So similar were the practices of major rivals, such as
> Mithraism, and so obviously did they occur before the existence of
> Christianity, and unconnected to Judaism, that church fathers such as
> Tertullian and Justin Martyr argued that Satan himself had given the
> rituals to the rival religions, as a sort-of prophetic mockery. ...
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Author: Sir FrederickSir Frederick Date: Oct 28, 2007 17:31
On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 23:27:38 -0000, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:
>
>"Franz Cumont was the first scholar to suggest that Christianity had
>borrowed iconographic themes from Mithraism, pointing out that
>Mithraic images...
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Author: turtoniturtoni Date: Oct 28, 2007 22:00
On Oct 28, 8:31 pm, Sir Frederick fuzzysys.com> wrote:> On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 23:27:38 -0000, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:>
>>"Franz Cumont was the first scholar to suggest that Christianity had
>>borrowed iconographic themes from Mithraism, pointing out that
>>Mithraic images of the Heavens, the Earth, the Ocean, the Sun, the
>>Moon, the Planets, signs of the Zodiac, the Winds, the Seasons, and
>>the Elements are found on Christian sarcophagi, mosaics, and
>>miniatures from the third to the fifth centuries. According to Cumont
>>the Church was opposed to the pagan practice of worshipping the cosmic
>>cycle, but these images were nevertheless incorporated into Christian
>>artworks, in which "a few alterations in costume and attitude
>>transformed a pagan scene into a Christian picture". Early Christian
>>depictions of Moses striking Mount Horeb (Sinai) with his staff to
>>release drinking water were, according to Cumont, inspired by an
>>earlier Mithraic reference to Mithras shooting arrows at rocks causing
>>fountains to spring up.[19]
>
>>M.J. Vermaseren claimed that the scene of Mithras ascending into the ...
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Date: Oct 29, 2007 09:54
On Oct 28, 7:27 pm, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:> On Oct 28, 7:17 pm, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:
>
>
>>> "Christianised rituals were among the cultural features of the
>> Mediterranean world that were adapted by the Early Christians, as part
>> of the thorough-going Christianization of pagan culture, which
>> included the landscape (see Christianised sites) and the calendar (see
>> Christianised calendar). The obvious connection to Jewish rituals of
>> Christian practices such as the Eucharist and Baptism, is often argued
>> to be by design. Christian tradition places these Christian use of
>> these activities as having originated in the life of Jesus, as
>> attested by the Biblical narratives (e.g. the Baptism of Jesus for
>> Baptism, and Last Supper for the Eucharist), and the Biblical
>> incidents are said to be examples of Jewish ritual (e.g. Baptism as
>> ritual cleansing, and the Last Supper as a passover seder). However,
>> these practices are also present in several non-Christian, non-Jewish,
>> ancient religions, a fact that made several church fathers
>> uncomfortable. So similar were the practices of major rivals, such as ...
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Author: turtoniturtoni Date: Oct 29, 2007 21:26
On Oct 29, 12:54 pm, Michae...@ gmail.com wrote: > On Oct 28, 7:27 pm, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>> On Oct 28, 7:17 pm, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:>
>>> "Christianised rituals were among the cultural features of the
>>> Mediterranean world that were adapted by the Early Christians, as part
>>> of the thorough-going Christianization of pagan culture, which
>>> included the landscape (see Christianised sites) and the calendar (see
>>> Christianised calendar). The obvious connection to Jewish rituals of
>>> Christian practices such as the Eucharist and Baptism, is often argued
>>> to be by design. Christian tradition places these Christian use of
>>> these activities as having originated in the life of Jesus, as
>>> attested by the Biblical narratives (e.g. the Baptism of Jesus for
>>> Baptism, and Last Supper for the Eucharist), and the Biblical
>>> incidents are said to be examples of Jewish ritual (e.g. Baptism as ...
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Author: turtoniturtoni Date: Oct 29, 2007 21:27
On Oct 28, 8:31 pm, Sir Frederick fuzzysys.com> wrote:> On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 23:27:38 -0000, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:>
>>"Franz Cumont was the first scholar to suggest that Christianity had
>>borrowed iconographic themes from Mithraism, pointing out that
>>Mithraic images of the Heavens, the Earth, the Ocean, the Sun, the
>>Moon, the Planets, signs of the Zodiac, the Winds, the Seasons, and
>>the Elements are found on Christian sarcophagi, mosaics, and
>>miniatures from the third to the fifth centuries. According to Cumont
>>the Church was opposed to the pagan practice of worshipping the cosmic
>>cycle, but these images were nevertheless incorporated into Christian
>>artworks, in which "a few alterations in costume and attitude
>>transformed a pagan scene into a Christian picture". Early Christian
>>depictions of Moses striking Mount Horeb (Sinai) with his staff to
>>release drinking water were, according to Cumont, inspired by an
>>earlier Mithraic reference to Mithras shooting arrows at rocks causing
>>fountains to spring up.[19]
>
>>M.J. Vermaseren claimed that the scene of Mithras ascending into the ...
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Author: Roger PearseRoger Pearse Date: Oct 30, 2007 02:26
On 28 Oct, 23:27, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:> On Oct 28, 7:17 pm, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:
>
>>> "Christianised rituals were among the cultural features of the
>> Mediterranean world that were adapted by the Early Christians, as part
>> of the thorough-going Christianization of pagan culture, which
>> included the landscape (see Christianised sites) and the calendar (see
>> Christianised calendar). The obvious connection to Jewish rituals of
>> Christian practices such as the Eucharist and Baptism, is often argued
>> to be by design. Christian tradition places these Christian use of
>> these activities as having originated in the life of Jesus, as
>> attested by the Biblical narratives (e.g. the Baptism of Jesus for
>> Baptism, and Last Supper for the Eucharist), and the Biblical
>> incidents are said to be examples of Jewish ritual (e.g. Baptism as
>> ritual cleansing, and the Last Supper as a passover seder). However,
>> these practices are also present in several non-Christian, non-Jewish,
>> ancient religions, a fact that made several church fathers
>> uncomfortable. So similar were the practices of major rivals, such as
>> Mithraism, and so obviously did they occur before the existence of ...
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Author: Roger PearseRoger Pearse Date: Oct 30, 2007 02:28
On 30 Oct, 04:26, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:> On Oct 29, 12:54 pm, Michae...@ gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >> On Oct 28, 7:27 pm, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:>
>>> On Oct 28, 7:17 pm, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:>
>>>> "Christianised rituals were among the cultural features of the
>>>> Mediterranean world that were adapted by the Early Christians, as part
>>>> of the thorough-going Christianization of pagan culture, which
>>>> included the landscape (see Christianised sites) and the calendar (see
>>>> Christianised calendar). The obvious connection to Jewish rituals of
>>>> Christian practices such as the Eucharist and Baptism, is often argued
>>>> to be by design. Christian tradition places these Christian use of
>>>> these activities as having originated in the life of Jesus, as
>>>> attested by the Biblical narratives (e.g. the Baptism of Jesus for ...
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Author: Roger PearseRoger Pearse Date: Oct 30, 2007 02:33
On 28 Oct, 23:17, turtoni fastmail.net> wrote:> "Christianised rituals were among the cultural features of the
> Mediterranean world that were adapted by the Early Christians...
The early Christians rejected pagan rituals explicitly -- see
Tertullian, De Baptismo.
> However,
> these practices are also present in several non-Christian, non-Jewish,
> ancient religions, a fact that made several church fathers
> uncomfortable. So similar were the practices of major rivals, such as
> Mithraism, and so obviously did they occur before the existence of
> Christianity, and unconnected to Judaism, that church fathers such as
> Tertullian and Justin Martyr argued that Satan himself had given the
> rituals to the rival religions, as a sort-of prophetic mockery.
This is not what Justin and Tertullian say.
> According to several secular scholars, the fact that even early
> Christian church fathers admitted that the other religions used these
> rituals, and that they admitted the other religions used them first,
> suggests that Christianity adopted them from these sources, and the
> biblical narrative was invented later to justify Christian usage.
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