"Gage"
summertime.net> wrote in message
news:dIGdnYgjRaGypWXanZ2dnUVZ_quhnZ2d@giganews.com...> Steve O wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Gage"
summertime.net> wrote in message
>> news:zMCdnXyUw9r-aGranZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@giganews.com...>>> Steve O wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Gage"
summertime.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:orWdnWmYZJpvXWranZ2dnUVZ_qGknZ2d@giganews.com...>>>>> mizlee wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey, Suzanne, numbnuts, you do realize that your precious bIble is
>>>>>> nothing more than a book of fairy tales, don't you? And that we
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> give a rat's ass about your loony interpretations?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know why you would think that we are not fully aware of that
>>>>> fact already. What you are having difficulty comprehending is that we
>>>>> know the reason *why* you think and feel as you do.
>>>>
>>>> Nope, if you knew the reasons why we think and feel as we do, YOU would
>>>> be an atheist too.
>>>> You simply do not understand those reasons.
>>>
>>> Well, yes I do.
>>
>> You clearly do not.
>> If you disagree, perhaps you could kindly tell me what MY reasons for
>> being an atheist are, and I'll tell you if I agree with them.
>
> Come on. Do you really think I would expect you to agree with me?
> Let's don't get too freaky here.
> I *know* you won't agree with me, no matter what I say. That is a given.
So you use that as a reason to avoid answering the question, right?
> I also know you do not know the real reason why you are an atheist.
Then you are wrong- I am fully aware of why I am an atheist, and have
described those reasons in this forum many, many times before.
> You have some sort of idea concocted in your head that you believe is the
> real reason, but I know it's not.
And you know better, do you? *snort*
> The next time you're at the library, read Second Corinthians, chapter 4,
> verses 3 and 4. You might want to read them more than just a few times.
I don't need to go to the library to do that. I can read it from my own
bible.
2 Corinthians 4;3 - "But if our gospel be hid, it be hid to them who are
lost"
also 4;4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which
believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the
image of God, should shine unto them."
You keep recommending bible quotations, but all it ever does is confirm the
idiocy of your original statement.
This particularly repulsive bible quote simply confirms that God had
supposedly allowed " the minds of non- believers to be blinded"
Do you really not see the ridiculousness of this position?
I.O.W - instead of trying to save the non-believer, as a truly loving God
would, this particularly nasty God ensures THAT THEY CANNOT BELIEVE" thus
condemning them to eternal torture and hellfire.
What an evil and sadistic bastard your God is.
Also please note that it makes no mention of the condemned non- elected
being condemned before they were even created as you originally claimed.
Now I suppose that you are now going to claim that the "god of this world"
is not YOUR god, particularly as it is spelt with a lower case "g" in the
bible, and is, in fact, Satan.
Still makes no difference, whatever you claim that god happens to be,
because even if there is a difference between "God "and "the god of this
world" or if "the god of this world" is Satan, then the fact still remains
that, according to your fantasy story GOD STILL ALLOWED, IN FACT
ENSURED -THAT NON BELIEVERS WOULD NOT ONLY SUFFER BUT WOULD BE COMPLETELY
UNABLE TO PREVENT THAT SUFFERING.
This hardly bodes well with the image of an all-loving, all forgiving God,
does it?
Your mind has been warped and twisted by a particularly vicious and nasty
mind virus that will eventually cause you so much confusion, it could
compromise your mental health and reasoning faculties, if it has not already
done so
Please try not to torture yourself over such ridiculous bronze age
fantasies- it isn't healthy.
Also, please understand that no matter how hard I tried, I would be simply
unable to perform the necessary mind gymnastics and self- deception required
to believe in the kind of stuff you place faith in.
I am, to use a phrase, extremely mythologically challenged, and it would
take more than a few contradictory and offensive bible quotes to sway me.
>
>>
>>> And I know there's no convincing you of that, so I'm not even going to
>>> try. I will say that I know that I know that because it's
>>> all in God's word, and through the Holy Spirit, my mind has been opened
>>> to the truth that is in His word.
>>
>> So you claim.
>> In which case, it should be fairly easy for you to impart this
>> "knowledge" to us, right?
>
> No. I can't.
>
>> Oh- I forgot- it only comes from "within", right?
>
> No. It only comes from God.
> And only if you're one of His chosen elect.
Neat circle- and completely unbelievable
You haven't heard about Jake's Ass at all, have you - you should check it
out - it encompasses neatly in a nutshell anything you might have to say.
http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php
>>
>>>
>>> And I know, to your mind, that sounds like a bunch of hogwash. I know
>>> that because it used to sound that way to me, before God gave me a new
>>> heart. So, therefore, I do know *why* you think the way you do, without
>>> being an atheist myself.
>>
>> You haven't the first clue.
>
> Well, I'm pretty sure I do.
Nope, not even in the slightest.
In fact, I would guess that if you were dressed in a clue suit,doused
yourself in clue musk and danced around in a clue field at the height of
clue mating season, you still wouldn't have a clue.
>> You do not know me- you have no idea what my experiences are.
>
> I don't have to know you, or anything about you, except that you are
> a human being.
That would be a reasonable assumption, and probably the only thing you have
been correct about so far.
>
>> I can only guarantee one thing- they are probably very different from
>> yours.
>
> Not so much different that I can't know why you're an atheist.
Shall we go through that clue thing again?
Once again - you have absolutely no idea at all.
If you truly understood why I am an atheist - you would be an atheist
yourself.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>> You have been blinded by your spiritual father, Satan.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, my father's name is Bill.
>>>
>>>> He can be a little old devil sometimes, but he certainly isn't Satan.
>>>> Why you would think otherwise, I have absolutely no idea, seeing as
>>>> you've never met him.
>>>
>>> That's your biological father. I'm talking about your spiritual father.
>>
>> I have no idea at all what a "spiritual" father is supposed to be.
>> Perhaps you can explain it, preferably, in terms that actually make
>> sense.
>
> Have you ever heard that Bob Dylan song "Gotta Serve Somebody" ?
Nope.
>
> The refrain goes:
>
> But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
> You're gonna have to serve somebody,
> Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
> But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
And what, exactly, does that have to do with the price of piscatorial
creatures?
>
>
> Whoever you serve is your spiritual father.
That is, assuming that Bob is right, and that you "have to serve somebody"
What is it that makes you think that
A. we have to serve someone... and
B. There is only a choice of two to serve???
> While you're at the library, read John, chapter 8, verses 38-44.
> Again, more than one time.
>
Is five times enough?
On top of the previous number of times I've read it?
... The truth shall make you free.... Fine words, but what is it about this
particular chapter and verse which makes you think it is the truth?
Because it says so?
I also find it interesting that this particular verse appears to imply that
it was considered common knowledge around the time that Jesus was born out
of fornication, rather than from the usual Catholic doctrine of immaculate
conception.
Read Chapter 8, verse 41,... more than one time!...
>>>
>>>>> God allowed that
>>>>> to happen because you are not one of His elect, that is, those that
>>>>> were
>>>>> chosen before the world was ever created to receive salvation.
>>>
>>>>> You were also chosen, not for salvation, but for eternal damnation.
>>>
>>>> Now hold on here a minute.
>>>> You are actually claiming that before the world even existed, God
>>>> decided that he would create me the way I am simply in order to condemn
>>>> me at the end of life to eternal, agonizing torture?
>>
>>> That's exactly right.
>>
>>>> What would be the point of that????
>>
>>> There's alot of things about God that are still hidden.
Hidden?
It's mostly impenetrable gibberish!!
>>> We all will just have to wait and find out about that.
>>
>> But you are describing an evil, vicious God.
> No. He is a holy God, and a just God.
> Read Romans, chapter 9. The entire chapter.
What again???
All 33 verses??
Hmmm... OK..
...All of which seems to simply prove that God doesn't seem to be able to
make his mind up whether he loves everyone or hates certain people. (Like
Esau ...- Malachi 1;3 or Romans 9;13 )
Yet this still leaves the crux of the question... why did this supposedly
kind God create people destined for hell with no other choice, as
demonstrated in John 12;40 or 2 Thessalonians 2;11-12?
(Again, read them more than once)
All you are doing here is confirming what I originally said- that your God -
if he created non- believers simply for the purpose of condemning them to
hell, is one confused, sick and evil puppy.
So far, you have failed to demonstrate otherwise.
In fact, your precious bible is good evidence in favour of MY argument. (as
if we didn't already know that)
>
>> Why would such a God be worthy of worship?
> Again, God would have to renew your heart before you could understand
> that.
> You have to be born again before *any* of this makes any sense at all to
> you.
You mean, it would help if I underwent some horrible trauma in my life,
became desperate with no-one or nowhere else to turn to; suffered some type
of mental breakdown and eventually placed all of my faith in some kind of
imaginary super- hero dragged from the dusty pages of some primitive
goat-herder's book of magic stories?
What on earth would compel me to do that??
(As an aside, from an outside point of view - many of the die hard
fundamentalists all seem to have arrived at God via that route, or at least
it appears that way in here )
>
>> What exactly is the point of creating a human being who has no belief in
>> God simply for the purpose of him destroying him later on?
>> Your answer simply doesn't cut the mustard at all.
>
> No one is expecting you to understand it.
> All I can tell you is read Romans Chapter 9.
And I have done so, many many times.
Behind all the gibberish lies a truly uninspiring basic idea that God thinks
it is okay to "harden men's hearts" to himself in order to have the pleasure
of seeing them tortured for eternity later on.
That's sick and disgusting (if it were actually true)
>
>> It is no different than the old, lame excuse, " God works in mysterious
>> ways"- except in this instance, he's being rather obvious - he appears to
>> have created a person lacking in belief simply in order to later condemn
>> them to eternal torture while celebrating his "chosen ones"
>> It means we have no choice whatsoever about believing in God- you are
>> clearly one very confused dude, even when compared to the average theist.
>
> Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw
> him: and I will raise him up in the last day."
> And again, "For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto
> me, except it be given unto him of the Father."
> And again, "You did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you,
> that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should abide:
> that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it
> you."
Are you rebooting yourself here???
>
> The apostle Paul said, "...even as he chose us in him before the
> foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before
> him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus
> Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will..."
So why do people like you bother trying to convert others to their faith, if
they have already "had their hearts hardened" and "blinded to faith" and are
already condemned by your God himself ?
>
> And again, "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens
> whomever he wills."
That sounds dirty.
You might get a stiffy thinking about God but I certainly don't. ;-)
>
> The apostle Peter said, "But you are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a
> holy nation, a people for [God's] own possession, that you may show forth
> the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous
> light."
>
> I could go on.
You certainly do.
>But unless you have the Holy Spirit, you will never
> believe any of the Scriptures.
Kind of a catch 22 kind of thing isn't it?
I mean, no matter how hard I try, God has already chosen someone else before
I was even created , and having hardened my heart to him, I couldn't even
believe him if I tried, right?
So we end up with the result- God makes me the way I am, then as punishment
for being as he was supposed to have created me, I suffer eternal pain and
torture forever.
Nice God.
> You've obviously never heard or read any of Martin Luther, or John Calvin?
I have certainly heard of it - but I have certainly never felt the need to
read any of it- and Luther and Calvin didn't go down very well in the
staunch Catholic School I attended as a child.
In later education, the subject never came up.
.
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>> Was sort of evil, twisted sick mind could think of something like that?
>>>> That means one of two things- either you are crazy or your God is.
>>>
>>> And it would naturally seem that way to an unregenerate mind.
>>> All I can refer you to is to read Romans chapter 9.
>>> And then re-read it again.
>>>
>>
>> I was already aware of it.
>> Brought up in a Catholic school, anything by Paul was persistently rammed
>> into my consciousness on a daily basis.
>
> And that's exactly why you rejected it.
I didn't reject it at school.
Until the age of 13 I was a full time regular believer, - I used to read
the sermon during the 10 am Children's Mass.
I never really rejected or hated the doctrine at any stage, I just gradually
came to realize what a load of old bollocks it all was as I grew and
matured.
A visit to the Vatican in 1975 finally put the nail in the coffin of any
remnants of belief I had at that time
By most standards in this forum - I was a late developer.
No , I rejected it because it was all crap - crazy stories promoted by
primitive minds for gullible people.
Look, I understand your religion perfectly well- I understand how it traps
and confuses minds, and leads them into doing the craziest things -like
killing their family or flying planes into buildings, or shooting people on
their doorstep simply because of their different beliefs.
I also understand how the threat of eternal damnation can easily frighten
the sensitive and simple-minded or superstitious type, just like any other
boogeyman or ghost story.
The only thing I don't understand is why anyone would fall for it.
>
>> What it essentially claims is that God had already destined some people
>> to go to heaven and others that will go to hell.
According to the boogeyman story, yes it does.
>>There is nothing they can do to change the will of God. Paul says that
>>this is how it should be, saying: "What if God, willing to show his
>>wrath, and to make his power known" damns most of mankind to eternal
>>torments of hell for things they either didn't do or couldn't avoid
>>doing?
Paul was a misogynistic weirdo.
I wouldn't pay any attention to anything he had to say.
>> So does your God love everyone?
>
> No. He says, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
>
>> Or does he simply love his "chosen ones" only?
> Correct.
So, not an all-loving God then?
That's not what I was taught at school.
>
>> This is just totally sick and completely unfair - it is not the actions
>> of a just God- not even worthy of consideration. (If it was actually
>> real)
>> Then again, Paul was something of a hard-liner.
>
> You must not know any Presbyterians, or any Episcopalians.
> And there's also the Reformed Baptists.
I usually try to avoid strange people like that.
Where I live, anyone with any religious inclinations are usually mistrusted
and treated as something of a nutter. Avoided at best, or ridiculed at
worst.
Thank God I live in a sane country!
I only know one person with any religious belief and they normally keep
themselves to themselves, to avoid any embarrassment.
.
>
> That was the dogmatic belief of the early church. In the fourth century
> a British monk by the name of Pelagius came up with the doctrine that
> man does not need forgiveness. Man can live the perfect sinless life.
That depends on what you mean by sin.
There are many things I consider a sin which others don't.
Destroying your mind and reasoning faculties with fairytales and
superstition is one of them
>
> Then in the late 16th and early 17th centuries a Dutch theologian named
> Jacobus Arminius taught what became known as semi-Pelagianism.
> Most modern-day American denominations, except those mentioned above,
> are known as Arminian, as opposed to Calvinist, which believes in pre-
> destination and election.
>
Thanks for the history heads-up.
>>
>>
>>>>> I know you are not going to believe any of this. You will claim it's
>>>>> all
>>>>> part of the "fairy story".
>>>>
>>>> I don't need to claim that it is- in the absence of any evidence, other
>>>> than your say so, you need to prove that it isn't.
>
> No I don't.
Oh yes you do.
> You won't believe it no matter what I do.
> You *can't* believe it. That's how much Satan has blinded you.
do you have any idea whatsoever how completely silly the whole idea of Satan
is to a rational, thinking mind?
Please don't insult my intelligence by trying to convince me that there is
such a thing outside of your fevered imagination.
You'll be claiming that angels are real too, next, I expect.
>
>>>
>>> No. I can't do that. Only God can do that. And He will, in time.
>>> Be patient.
>>>
>>>>> I'm not trying to change your mind about
>>>>> anything. I know that's an impossibility. I'm merely showing you *why*
>>>>> you believe what you believe.
>>>>
>>>> Like I said, you have absolutely no clue as to why we believe what we
>>>> believe. (or in this case- fail to believe)
>>>
>>> Well, yes I do. See above.
Putting that clue suit on again, are we??
>>
>> If you had the slightest inkling, you would be able to demonstrate it -
>> so far you haven't, you just keep muttering silly comments about some
>> "spiritual Father, Satan"
>
> It's not very silly at all, if you ask me.
> And it's spelled with a lowercase "f" when referring to Satan.
Well, if he is my Father as you claim, I'd like to show him a little respect
and use the capital version, (in line with the commandment, I believe
>>>>> Even you yourself are not able to change your own mind. You are
>>>>> predestined
>>>>> to believe what you now believe.
>>>>
>>>> And what exactly is it that we are supposed to believe, in your mind?
>>>> (please note, not in mine)
>>>
>>> That Jesus Christ was the Son of God, in the flesh, and that He died,
>>> was buried, and, on the third day, rose again for *your* justification.
>>
>> That is not what I believe.
>> It was your claim that you know what *we* believe - are you getting a
>> little lost, here?
>>
>>>
>>> That's all anyone has to believe to be saved.
>>
>> Saved from what?
>
> Everlasting torment and pain beyond your imagination.
But according to you, we are already condemned and can't be saved , right?
I'll bet this is the part where you're going to tell me there actually is a
way out...
Look, this Jesus thing is the oldest trick in the book - here's how it
works, and it works for any religion you'd care to mention...Christianity,
Scientology, Islam, etc...
1. You are afflicted with some kind of stain or defect, or there is
something wrong with you- you are imperfect, etc
2. Only God, Yahweh, Allah, Jesus, L Ron Hubbard, whatever ,has the power or
knowledge to remove that defect
3. I can show you how to reach God, Allah, Yahweh..... at a price!
Get's 'em every time!! (The highly gullible and foolish, that is)
> I thought you already knew that from being brought up
> in a Catholic school. Or were you playing hookie that day?
About what you have to believe to be saved??
No, I don't miss that day- I just simply didn't buy it.
--
Steve O
a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter)
B.A.A.W.A.
Convicted by Earthquack
"I have a miraculous picture of Jesus - if you look really closely at the
face, you can see a burnt tortilla"
