> "Robert Epstein" verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:cxZwj.6088$xg6.4832@trnddc07...
>

>>Suzanne wrote:
>>
>>

>>>"Robert Epstein" verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>news:ibswj.25284$v57.11764@trnddc05...
>>>
>>>

>>>>Suzanne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>>"Robert Epstein" verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>>news:PHQrj.1255$Uq4.437@trndny02...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>>Suzanne wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

>>>>>>>"Robert Epstein" verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:J4xpj.2435$EK3.2051@trndny04...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>Suzanne wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>"Libertarius" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:47a1445e$0$26043$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>Free Lunch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:31:01 -0600, in alt.atheism "Suzanne"
>>>>>>>>>>>flash.net> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>"Mike Painter" sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>news:6Lsnj.42230$Pv2.22079@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Michael Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:44:13 -0600, Free Lunch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>True, that is a part of my case, but not all of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The claims made for the biblical Jesus are historically
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>impossible,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as they set up two or more mutually contradictory claims.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The fact that the claims are contradictory neither tell us
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>claims are unreliable,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Eh?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Did you phrase that incorrectly?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It *does* tell us that the "claims" are contradictory!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Perhaps you should explain that if they contradict each other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>only one can be true and both can be false.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>If this was examined from a scientific viewpoint which tried to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>show the book was litterally true, it would be falsified at this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>My point of view is...
>>>>>>>>>>>>that when people are talking about scripture, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>they think that two scriptures seem to contradict
>>>>>>>>>>>>each other, then they don't understand one of them.

>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Why do you assume that the scriptural claims are true? Some are in
>>>>>>>>>>>conflict with reality.

>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>===>And many are in conflict with others, the Bible being a
>>>>>>>>>>man-made
>>>>>>>>>>compilation of selected and edited literature, of the
>>>>>>>>>>private expressions of their authors' ideas,
>>>>>>>>>>opinions, speculations and fantasies.
>>>>>>>>>>No two men think alike, and those authors lived cultures and
>>>>>>>>>>centuries apart. They believed in different names for the
>>>>>>>>>>gods which each created in his own head. So, the differences,
>>>>>>>>>>though ignored or explained away, are not at all surprising.
>>>>>>>>>>So long, that is, as one resists the Big Lie that their
>>>>>>>>>>writings are the "Word of God". -- L.
>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The Bible is the written word of God, and says that
>>>>>>>>>the Lord wrote it through men whom God did
>>>>>>>>>inspire.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Suzanne

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>that assumes that this is the truth.
>>>>>>>>there is no extra-biblical truth of this possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>it is quite strictly a matter of faith, isn't it?
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I guess it depends upon what you mean by faith.
>>>>>>>To me, faith is trusting in something that is
>>>>>>>revealed to me inwardly in my heart, which I
>>>>>>>have not refused but accepted, based on the
>>>>>>>assurance that is given to me by the Lord. But I
>>>>>>>do not consider faith to be just blindly deciding
>>>>>>>to do something whether you really think it is
>>>>>>>right or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Suzanne

>>>>>>
>>>>>>no of course not. faith means following something that you feel is
>>>>>>true based on inward conviction, as you say, *without* what would
>>>>>>normally be considered concrete factual proof. That is what makes it
>>>>>>faith. You believe it is true without direct evidence. Now, if you
>>>>>>were lucky enough to touch the hem of Jesus' garment or to see the
>>>>>>loaves and fishes or the parting of the Red Sea, then you wouldn't need
>>>>>>faith - you would have direct evidence that God is there and is able to
>>>>>>do these things. But if you do not happen to experience a miracle in
>>>>>>person, then you are dependent on faith. Jesus said that those who
>>>>>>believe based on faith are more worthy than those who require proof, as
>>>>>>he expressed when Thomas touched him to make sure he was really there.
>>>>>>Jesus was disappointed that Thomas doubted and did not have faith and
>>>>>>required proof. So the issue is whether faith is justified, whether it
>>>>>>can be shown to be justified, or whether those who practice it are
>>>>>>deluded. Most likely it is an issue that will never be resolved
>>>>>>between believers and those who doubt; only agreed upon by fellow
>>>>>>believers in the same faith system.
>>>>>>

>>>>>
>>>>>Pardon my delay, Robert. I just had cataract surgery. : )
>>>>>I can see again. Wow...it's great.
>>>>>
>>>>>This is difficult to explain since you are talking about
>>>>>something else other than what I was meaning. I see
>>>>>what you are saying. Yes, sometimes I guess people
>>>>>can do things the way that you describe...but that was
>>>>>not exactly my experience. I felt the pressure and the
>>>>>power of the Lord pulling me toward making a
>>>>>decision to give my life to him...the Bible calls this
>>>>>him "drawing" you. Now, I'll try to explain this. Have
>>>>>you ever held a north pole magnet next to a south pole
>>>>>magnet? Or held a north pole magnet next to another
>>>>>north pole magnet? You have this "pulling" or this
>>>>>"repelling" sensation as you hold those two REAL
>>>>>magnets to one another...? This is like what I felt like
>>>>>on the inside of me. It was something beyond myself
>>>>>that I am describing. It was not coming from me, at
>>>>>all, but from a force that was external to me. This was
>>>>>the Holy Spirit acting upon me, drawing me to the Lord.
>>>>>I also experienced this lostness. It was not an emotion,
>>>>>and it was not just a "feeling." Again, it was outside of
>>>>>myself coming to me to make me understand that without
>>>>>him a person is lost. That is what is called "conviction,"
>>>>>and it is from the Holy Spirit. It sounds like I am
>>>>>describing "feelings." It is not feelings, but a force that
>>>>>was acting upon me. If you have not experienced this,
>>>>>then it will probably not make sense. There was nothing
>>>>>ethereal about it, or dreamlike, or trance-like, or any
>>>>>thing but wide-awake awareness of the presence - the
>>>>>very real presence of the Holy Spirit. Now, if this sounds
>>>>>like so much gobbledy-gook to you, you will now know
>>>>>it if it happens to you, and what this is. It is the Holy Spirit
>>>>>seeking you. This may not happen to everyone in this same
>>>>>manner as it did to me, but this is what happened to me.
>>>>>I knew that the Lord was present and that he was calling me
>>>>>to trust him as my Savior, and to be the payment for all of
>>>>>my sins, past, present and the future ones as well. When I
>>>>>"received" him, then I experienced this joy and he would
>>>>>talk to me inside of my heart and his words came to me
>>>>>in thoughts like sentences given to me from an outside
>>>>>source. It had nothing to do with the imagination.
>>>>>
>>>>>Suzanne

>>>>
>>>>I am aware that you don't think I understand the nature of your
>>>>experience, but I am not accusing you of imagining what happened to you
>>>>or of it being misinterpreted. I *am* saying that there are some aspects
>>>>of an experience that are direct, and then there are others that are
>>>>extrapolated based on a belief system and may or may not be correct
>>>>conclusions to draw from it. For instance, if you realized the direct
>>>>presence of the holy spirit within you, pulling you to Jesus and letting
>>>>you know that he was your savior, does this automatically mean that
>>>>everything in the Bible is literally true, and that it is the word of
>>>>God? Or is this a decision made based on the combination of belief and
>>>>this powerful experience of the living Spirit?
>>>>

>>>
>>>I was not an adult when I made this decision...so let
>>>me explain where I was coming from...
>>>
>>>Let me go back a minute. I have a unique experience
>>>that many do not have. I was seven when I had all
>>>this happen to me and accepted Jesus as my Savior.
>>>I did automatically believe that the Bible is the Word
>>>of God and so I read it with that in mind. It has never
>>>failed me. I've put it into my life and it just plain works!
>>>So...when I get older and find that there are some that
>>>had doubts about the Bible, since I came into the
>>>knowledge of it from a child's point of view, I can
>>>tell them that I have the experiential knowledge of
>>>having put it into effect my whole life and it works.
>>>If the Bible were a train that someone was riding on,
>>>I am on the train and I see people looking at the train
>>>wondering if it is going to hold them up if they get
>>>on it. I am saying to them from the train, "Yes, it will
>>>hold you up, come on board."
>>>
>>>Now, as I look back, the Lord led me to trust the Bible.
>>>There are direct statements that Jesus said about the
>>>Bible that verifies that it is the Word of God. The New
>>>Testament tells that Jesus prayed in the Garden of
>>>Gethsemane, the night before he went to his ordeal and
>>>then trial, he prayed for all of his followers and that
>>>prayer is in the Bible. He prayed also for all those such
>>>as us in the future, to be sanctified by the testimony of
>>>his followers. That is what the New Testament is, the
>>>testimony of those followers that he left on the earth
>>>in the beginning of Christianity. The New Testament
>>>tells about how Christians first met in homes and
>>>that as they did so, "the word increased." We read in
>>>the New Testament the letters of those early leaders.
>>>Jesus also verified in the Bible that the Old Testament,
>>>is indeed God's Word as well. He read it and taught it
>>>in the synagogs and in the temple. But I learned these
>>>things later. The influence of the Holy Spirit led me to
>>>trust the Bible. So that part was definitely determined
>>>by me spiritually by his communication with me through
>>>my innermost thoughts. I can only tell someone about
>>>that and naturally can't take my thoughts out to show
>>>someone and I can't say "this sentence came from the
>>>Lord...this sentence came from my own mind..." etc.
>>>So someone hearing what I am saying has no concrete
>>>thing to see. HOWEVER....as I tell someone something
>>>like that, the Lord can simultaneously be working in
>>>that hearers "heart" (his innermost being) to trust what
>>>I am saying, since it is all through the faith route.
>>>The spirit in a person is not understood by some.
>>>They are not aware that they even have a spirit, or
>>>that they can discern things through it.
>>>
>>>Many people are so intelligent and because of their
>>>great intelligence, they have learned to rely on their
>>>own expertise. So for that person it is doubly hard
>>>for them to trust anyone outside of themselves. Many
>>>gifted children are children that grew up really smarter
>>>about many things than even their own parents. So
>>>that person has trouble trusting anyone else. One of the
>>>fascinating things that I studied in college was about
>>>gifted children and the particular problems that they
>>>have, if they have difficult environments to grow up
>>>in.
>>>
>>>

>>>>It is my contention that people who experience the Holy Spirit sometimes
>>>>mistake the conclusions that they draw from this. That is all I am
>>>>saying. This experience does not necessarily justify the entire modern
>>>>American Christian belief system, which goes a lot further in its
>>>>conclusions than the inner experience of the Holy Spirit. I hope this
>>>>makes sense to you, whether or not you would agree with it. I
>>>>distinguish between the direct relationship with God, and the
>>>>relationship with the Bible, which is taking the word of those who wrote
>>>>it. I also think the teachings of Jesus in the world before he died are
>>>>quite a bit different than the teachings of Paul, and that Paul's
>>>>interpretation has put a very different spin on Christianity. So I don't
>>>>have a problem with the direct relationship with Jesus and the communion
>>>>with the Holy Spirit, but I do have a problem with the Bible beyond
>>>>Jesus' own words.
>>>>

>>>
>>>I do hear you and understand what you are saying, Robert.
>>>You know, children see things quite differently than adults
>>>do. I count myself to be fortunate to have gotten to know
>>>about Paul before I got grown and before I heard people
>>>talking against his leadership. What I marvelled at with
>>>Paul is that he was this romping stomping enemy against
>>>Christians, who was completely broken down by the
>>>presence of the Lord witnessing to him on the road to
>>>Damascus. He must have been totally stunned to find
>>>out that he was not doing God a favor but was actually
>>>fighting against him. He was at first shunned by the
>>>others, who probably were afraid of him. They probably
>>>wondered if he was a spy. Then he claimed to be an
>>>Apostle called by Jesus. But they came around to
>>>accepting him. I could see Paul's personal growth
>>>shown in the scriptures as his life went onward after
>>>he became a Christian. He became this ideal person
>>>who could be trusting of the Lord even while in
>>>jail, and he and whoever may have been with him in
>>>that would sing songs of joy even in jail. He displayed
>>>this marvelous calm when he found himself to be
>>>in chains and on a ship going the opposite way from
>>>the direction the Lord told him to go in. He was
>>>supposed to go to Rome and there he was going the
>>>opposite direction.
>>>
>>>Paul had faith, though, that the delay in direction was
>>>a god-given delay. Most of us would not have that
>>>presence of mind and we might panic when something
>>>unexpected happens. As they were going away from
>>>Rome, a storm came up and the ship he was on, started
>>>breaking up in the water. It was the custom that the
>>>person escorting prisoners had to kill them in such a
>>>case because if they got free, then the guard would
>>>be hunted down and himself be put to death by the
>>>officials. Paul told the man "don't do that, because
>>>you may need us to help get us all to shore." The
>>>guard decided to follow what Paul said, and he
>>>released the prisoners. They all swam for shore,
>>>and came to the island of Malta. The natives in
>>>that place were very friendly...sort of like you might
>>>have expected the Hawaiian Islanders to be in early
>>>days. They wanted to throw a kind of Maltese luau
>>>(for lack of a better word!) for Paul and those with
>>>him. He preached there a while and today there is
>>>a cave there that is the one he lived in and preached
>>>in, dedicated to him. When he left, he went to Rome
>>>as he was supposed to do, and that is where he was
>>>later martyred for his faith in Christ. He was an
>>>advocate of women being respectful to their
>>>husbands and of men giving their love sacrificially
>>>to their wives "even as Christ also loved the church
>>>and gave himself for it." I think that his writing of
>>>1 Corinthians chapter 13 (the LOVE chapter) is one
>>>of the most beautifully written works in the Bible.
>>>He shows that agape love is the ultimate form of
>>>love, and that this is the goal we should have with
>>>people. I admire his ability to be content in whatever
>>>circumstances he finds himself in. I believe that a
>>>God that can create a universe, a galaxy, and all
>>>the wonderful and mighty things that exist, can
>>>certainly put together the Bible that he wants
>>>people to have. It's not men that I trust to have
>>>put the Bible together the right way, so much as
>>>it is that I trust that God did that, himself, as he
>>>worked through men who were inspired and who
>>>were obedient and trusted him enough to be
>>>obedient to the pathway that he set before them.
>>>He knew who he could trust in order to get
>>>what he wanted done, in other words. This is
>>>what I believe with all my heart. So I do trust
>>>the Bible to be God's Word. My trust of it came
>>>at first from my trust in Jesus who led me to
>>>study the Bible. Now, I have experiential knowledge
>>>that when I followed what the Bible teaches, it
>>>works. If someone only follows parts of the Bible,
>>>it doesn't work like following all of it and trusting
>>>God through it. I hope this answers what you have
>>>asked to your satisfaction.
>>>
>>>Suzanne

>>
>>Hi Suzanne.
>>I like your description and appreciate your sharing it. I have no doubt
>>that the Bible works for you, and I would only say that there are many
>>paths in my point of view, and there may be a few that are especially
>>effective, but not just one.
>>
>>However, I understand your commitment and I don't doubt that it works.
>>
>>I also find your talk on Paul very interesting. I will have to revisit
>>him as it is both a fascinating story and puts his personality in a
>>different light. I will look into that.
>>
>>By the way, your story is quite inspiring.
>>
>>I am basically an interfaith person and so I appreciate and embrace those
>>aspects of the paths I am exposed to that resonate with me. I know that
>>is not a very good thing to do from a Christian point of view, but it
>>accords with my basic makeup as an eclectic spiritualist.
>>
>>Thanks again,
>>Robert
>>

>
> Thank you very much, Robert. If you can, read
> John, chapter 4, especially verses 4-26. I hope
> and have prayed that the Lord will guide you as
> you explore, and that he will keep you close to
> him.
>
> Suzanne