> "Robert Epstein" verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:ibswj.25284$v57.11764@trnddc05...
>

>>Suzanne wrote:
>>
>>

>>>"Robert Epstein" verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>news:PHQrj.1255$Uq4.437@trndny02...
>>>
>>>

>>>>Suzanne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>>"Robert Epstein" verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>>news:J4xpj.2435$EK3.2051@trndny04...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>>Suzanne wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

>>>>>>>"Libertarius" wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:47a1445e$0$26043$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>Free Lunch wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:31:01 -0600, in alt.atheism "Suzanne"
>>>>>>>>>flash.net> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>"Mike Painter" sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>news:6Lsnj.42230$Pv2.22079@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>Michael Gray wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:44:13 -0600, Free Lunch
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>True, that is a part of my case, but not all of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The claims made for the biblical Jesus are historically
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>impossible,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as they set up two or more mutually contradictory claims.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>The fact that the claims are contradictory neither tell us that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>claims are unreliable,

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Eh?
>>>>>>>>>>>>Did you phrase that incorrectly?
>>>>>>>>>>>>It *does* tell us that the "claims" are contradictory!

>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Perhaps you should explain that if they contradict each other only
>>>>>>>>>>>one can be true and both can be false.
>>>>>>>>>>>If this was examined from a scientific viewpoint which tried to
>>>>>>>>>>>show the book was litterally true, it would be falsified at this
>>>>>>>>>>>point.
>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>My point of view is...
>>>>>>>>>>that when people are talking about scripture, and
>>>>>>>>>>they think that two scriptures seem to contradict
>>>>>>>>>>each other, then they don't understand one of them.

>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Why do you assume that the scriptural claims are true? Some are in
>>>>>>>>>conflict with reality.

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>===>And many are in conflict with others, the Bible being a man-made
>>>>>>>>compilation of selected and edited literature, of the
>>>>>>>>private expressions of their authors' ideas,
>>>>>>>>opinions, speculations and fantasies.
>>>>>>>>No two men think alike, and those authors lived cultures and
>>>>>>>>centuries apart. They believed in different names for the
>>>>>>>>gods which each created in his own head. So, the differences,
>>>>>>>>though ignored or explained away, are not at all surprising.
>>>>>>>>So long, that is, as one resists the Big Lie that their
>>>>>>>>writings are the "Word of God". -- L.
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The Bible is the written word of God, and says that
>>>>>>>the Lord wrote it through men whom God did
>>>>>>>inspire.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Suzanne

>>>>>>
>>>>>>that assumes that this is the truth.
>>>>>>there is no extra-biblical truth of this possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>it is quite strictly a matter of faith, isn't it?
>>>>>>

>>>>>
>>>>>I guess it depends upon what you mean by faith.
>>>>>To me, faith is trusting in something that is
>>>>>revealed to me inwardly in my heart, which I
>>>>>have not refused but accepted, based on the
>>>>>assurance that is given to me by the Lord. But I
>>>>>do not consider faith to be just blindly deciding
>>>>>to do something whether you really think it is
>>>>>right or not.
>>>>>
>>>>>Suzanne

>>>>
>>>>no of course not. faith means following something that you feel is true
>>>>based on inward conviction, as you say, *without* what would normally be
>>>>considered concrete factual proof. That is what makes it faith. You
>>>>believe it is true without direct evidence. Now, if you were lucky
>>>>enough to touch the hem of Jesus' garment or to see the loaves and fishes
>>>>or the parting of the Red Sea, then you wouldn't need faith - you would
>>>>have direct evidence that God is there and is able to do these things.
>>>>But if you do not happen to experience a miracle in person, then you are
>>>>dependent on faith. Jesus said that those who believe based on faith are
>>>>more worthy than those who require proof, as he expressed when Thomas
>>>>touched him to make sure he was really there. Jesus was disappointed that
>>>>Thomas doubted and did not have faith and required proof. So the issue
>>>>is whether faith is justified, whether it can be shown to be justified,
>>>>or whether those who practice it are deluded. Most likely it is an issue
>>>>that will never be resolved between believers and those who doubt; only
>>>>agreed upon by fellow believers in the same faith system.
>>>>

>>>
>>>Pardon my delay, Robert. I just had cataract surgery. : )
>>>I can see again. Wow...it's great.
>>>
>>>This is difficult to explain since you are talking about
>>>something else other than what I was meaning. I see
>>>what you are saying. Yes, sometimes I guess people
>>>can do things the way that you describe...but that was
>>>not exactly my experience. I felt the pressure and the
>>>power of the Lord pulling me toward making a
>>>decision to give my life to him...the Bible calls this
>>>him "drawing" you. Now, I'll try to explain this. Have
>>>you ever held a north pole magnet next to a south pole
>>>magnet? Or held a north pole magnet next to another
>>>north pole magnet? You have this "pulling" or this
>>>"repelling" sensation as you hold those two REAL
>>>magnets to one another...? This is like what I felt like
>>>on the inside of me. It was something beyond myself
>>>that I am describing. It was not coming from me, at
>>>all, but from a force that was external to me. This was
>>>the Holy Spirit acting upon me, drawing me to the Lord.
>>>I also experienced this lostness. It was not an emotion,
>>>and it was not just a "feeling." Again, it was outside of
>>>myself coming to me to make me understand that without
>>>him a person is lost. That is what is called "conviction,"
>>>and it is from the Holy Spirit. It sounds like I am
>>>describing "feelings." It is not feelings, but a force that
>>>was acting upon me. If you have not experienced this,
>>>then it will probably not make sense. There was nothing
>>>ethereal about it, or dreamlike, or trance-like, or any
>>>thing but wide-awake awareness of the presence - the
>>>very real presence of the Holy Spirit. Now, if this sounds
>>>like so much gobbledy-gook to you, you will now know
>>>it if it happens to you, and what this is. It is the Holy Spirit
>>>seeking you. This may not happen to everyone in this same
>>>manner as it did to me, but this is what happened to me.
>>>I knew that the Lord was present and that he was calling me
>>>to trust him as my Savior, and to be the payment for all of
>>>my sins, past, present and the future ones as well. When I
>>>"received" him, then I experienced this joy and he would
>>>talk to me inside of my heart and his words came to me
>>>in thoughts like sentences given to me from an outside
>>>source. It had nothing to do with the imagination.
>>>
>>>Suzanne

>>
>>I am aware that you don't think I understand the nature of your
>>experience, but I am not accusing you of imagining what happened to you or
>>of it being misinterpreted. I *am* saying that there are some aspects of
>>an experience that are direct, and then there are others that are
>>extrapolated based on a belief system and may or may not be correct
>>conclusions to draw from it. For instance, if you realized the direct
>>presence of the holy spirit within you, pulling you to Jesus and letting
>>you know that he was your savior, does this automatically mean that
>>everything in the Bible is literally true, and that it is the word of God?
>>Or is this a decision made based on the combination of belief and this
>>powerful experience of the living Spirit?
>>

>
> I was not an adult when I made this decision...so let
> me explain where I was coming from...
>
> Let me go back a minute. I have a unique experience
> that many do not have. I was seven when I had all
> this happen to me and accepted Jesus as my Savior.
> I did automatically believe that the Bible is the Word
> of God and so I read it with that in mind. It has never
> failed me. I've put it into my life and it just plain works!
> So...when I get older and find that there are some that
> had doubts about the Bible, since I came into the
> knowledge of it from a child's point of view, I can
> tell them that I have the experiential knowledge of
> having put it into effect my whole life and it works.
> If the Bible were a train that someone was riding on,
> I am on the train and I see people looking at the train
> wondering if it is going to hold them up if they get
> on it. I am saying to them from the train, "Yes, it will
> hold you up, come on board."
>
> Now, as I look back, the Lord led me to trust the Bible.
> There are direct statements that Jesus said about the
> Bible that verifies that it is the Word of God. The New
> Testament tells that Jesus prayed in the Garden of
> Gethsemane, the night before he went to his ordeal and
> then trial, he prayed for all of his followers and that
> prayer is in the Bible. He prayed also for all those such
> as us in the future, to be sanctified by the testimony of
> his followers. That is what the New Testament is, the
> testimony of those followers that he left on the earth
> in the beginning of Christianity. The New Testament
> tells about how Christians first met in homes and
> that as they did so, "the word increased." We read in
> the New Testament the letters of those early leaders.
> Jesus also verified in the Bible that the Old Testament,
> is indeed God's Word as well. He read it and taught it
> in the synagogs and in the temple. But I learned these
> things later. The influence of the Holy Spirit led me to
> trust the Bible. So that part was definitely determined
> by me spiritually by his communication with me through
> my innermost thoughts. I can only tell someone about
> that and naturally can't take my thoughts out to show
> someone and I can't say "this sentence came from the
> Lord...this sentence came from my own mind..." etc.
> So someone hearing what I am saying has no concrete
> thing to see. HOWEVER....as I tell someone something
> like that, the Lord can simultaneously be working in
> that hearers "heart" (his innermost being) to trust what
> I am saying, since it is all through the faith route.
> The spirit in a person is not understood by some.
> They are not aware that they even have a spirit, or
> that they can discern things through it.
>
> Many people are so intelligent and because of their
> great intelligence, they have learned to rely on their
> own expertise. So for that person it is doubly hard
> for them to trust anyone outside of themselves. Many
> gifted children are children that grew up really smarter
> about many things than even their own parents. So
> that person has trouble trusting anyone else. One of the
> fascinating things that I studied in college was about
> gifted children and the particular problems that they
> have, if they have difficult environments to grow up
> in.
>

>>It is my contention that people who experience the Holy Spirit sometimes
>>mistake the conclusions that they draw from this. That is all I am
>>saying. This experience does not necessarily justify the entire modern
>>American Christian belief system, which goes a lot further in its
>>conclusions than the inner experience of the Holy Spirit. I hope this
>>makes sense to you, whether or not you would agree with it. I distinguish
>>between the direct relationship with God, and the relationship with the
>>Bible, which is taking the word of those who wrote it. I also think the
>>teachings of Jesus in the world before he died are quite a bit different
>>than the teachings of Paul, and that Paul's interpretation has put a very
>>different spin on Christianity. So I don't have a problem with the direct
>>relationship with Jesus and the communion with the Holy Spirit, but I do
>>have a problem with the Bible beyond Jesus' own words.
>>

>
> I do hear you and understand what you are saying, Robert.
> You know, children see things quite differently than adults
> do. I count myself to be fortunate to have gotten to know
> about Paul before I got grown and before I heard people
> talking against his leadership. What I marvelled at with
> Paul is that he was this romping stomping enemy against
> Christians, who was completely broken down by the
> presence of the Lord witnessing to him on the road to
> Damascus. He must have been totally stunned to find
> out that he was not doing God a favor but was actually
> fighting against him. He was at first shunned by the
> others, who probably were afraid of him. They probably
> wondered if he was a spy. Then he claimed to be an
> Apostle called by Jesus. But they came around to
> accepting him. I could see Paul's personal growth
> shown in the scriptures as his life went onward after
> he became a Christian. He became this ideal person
> who could be trusting of the Lord even while in
> jail, and he and whoever may have been with him in
> that would sing songs of joy even in jail. He displayed
> this marvelous calm when he found himself to be
> in chains and on a ship going the opposite way from
> the direction the Lord told him to go in. He was
> supposed to go to Rome and there he was going the
> opposite direction.
>
> Paul had faith, though, that the delay in direction was
> a god-given delay. Most of us would not have that
> presence of mind and we might panic when something
> unexpected happens. As they were going away from
> Rome, a storm came up and the ship he was on, started
> breaking up in the water. It was the custom that the
> person escorting prisoners had to kill them in such a
> case because if they got free, then the guard would
> be hunted down and himself be put to death by the
> officials. Paul told the man "don't do that, because
> you may need us to help get us all to shore." The
> guard decided to follow what Paul said, and he
> released the prisoners. They all swam for shore,
> and came to the island of Malta. The natives in
> that place were very friendly...sort of like you might
> have expected the Hawaiian Islanders to be in early
> days. They wanted to throw a kind of Maltese luau
> (for lack of a better word!) for Paul and those with
> him. He preached there a while and today there is
> a cave there that is the one he lived in and preached
> in, dedicated to him. When he left, he went to Rome
> as he was supposed to do, and that is where he was
> later martyred for his faith in Christ. He was an
> advocate of women being respectful to their
> husbands and of men giving their love sacrificially
> to their wives "even as Christ also loved the church
> and gave himself for it." I think that his writing of
> 1 Corinthians chapter 13 (the LOVE chapter) is one
> of the most beautifully written works in the Bible.
> He shows that agape love is the ultimate form of
> love, and that this is the goal we should have with
> people. I admire his ability to be content in whatever
> circumstances he finds himself in. I believe that a
> God that can create a universe, a galaxy, and all
> the wonderful and mighty things that exist, can
> certainly put together the Bible that he wants
> people to have. It's not men that I trust to have
> put the Bible together the right way, so much as
> it is that I trust that God did that, himself, as he
> worked through men who were inspired and who
> were obedient and trusted him enough to be
> obedient to the pathway that he set before them.
> He knew who he could trust in order to get
> what he wanted done, in other words. This is
> what I believe with all my heart. So I do trust
> the Bible to be God's Word. My trust of it came
> at first from my trust in Jesus who led me to
> study the Bible. Now, I have experiential knowledge
> that when I followed what the Bible teaches, it
> works. If someone only follows parts of the Bible,
> it doesn't work like following all of it and trusting
> God through it. I hope this answers what you have
> asked to your satisfaction.
>
> Suzanne
>
>