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> All things age. All things die. All things live as long as they should.
>
> There no justification to try and take science and jam it into a myth to
> rationalize away the fact that the myth reports lifespans of more the
> 100 years and today, we can hardly live 100 years.
>
> You start with the failed premise that the mythical figures are factual.
>
> They are not. It's a story, a tall tale, a myth.
>

>
> |> | A note about these long years. When the earth is restored
> |> | to the way it was meant to be, as it was in the beginning,
> |> | (when the Millennial Kingdom is set up) the Bible says
> |> | that in those times in the future in that perfect kingdom,
> |> | "a child shall be a hundred." In Adam and Eve's day and
> |> | in the future kingdom when things are restored, there
> |> | will probably be richer oxygen in the air, and plants that
> |> | yield better nutrition, vitamins, trace minerals, etc.
> |> |
> |> This is an attempt to rationalize away the lack of evidence to support
> |> the claim.
> |>
> |> You should probably study up and some anatomy and physiology. The
> human
> |> body can not utilize O2 any richer then what we have now. To do so
> |> would kill a human being. O2 is a drug by definition in the medical
> |> world. It must be administered correctly or it can kill
> |>
> |> Our atmosphere is actually more nitrogen then oxygen. It's at about an
> |> 80%% to 18%% ratio. That's 80%% Nitrogen and 18%% oxygen.
> |>
> |> Lastly, this is wishful thinking on your part. There is NO indication
> |> that the earth it was or will be what you describe.
> |>
> | This is a very good point that you are making, except
> | that you are quick to judge me by saying this is
> | wishful thinking on my part. What you are saying is
> | based on the hope of pure air, and the state of modern
> | man as a measurement. The Bible says there was a
> | raqiya in place. That would probably account for
> | some things that we don't know about.
>
> No, I point out that you are engaged in wishful thinking because you
> want there to be a reason for things to be different.
>
> Let me ask you a question.
>
> Why do you think that out of this whole universe, with its potential of
> billions of galaxies, each with hundreds of billions of stars, around
> which there is the possibility of a hundred billion billion planets,
> that this world would even be noticed by a creator of the universe?
>

>
> |> |> |> | I imagine that quite a population explosion
> |> |> |> | could happen in just a hundred years such that many
> |> |> |> | people would be born. Based only on the facts that
> |> |> |> | we are told, Eve, Adam said, is the mother of all
> |> |> |> | living. The New Testament identifies Adam as being
> |> |> |> | the first man, and that by him sin came into the
> |> |> |> | world.
> |> |> |>
> |> |> |> 1. Mythical characters are not a basis for human history.
> They are
> |> |> |> mythical characters, generally, but no always, built up over a
> long
> |> |> |> period of time and their lives or embellished to make them bigger
> |> then
> |> |> |> life.
> |> |> |>
> |> |> | Your conclusions cause you to leap to the conclusion
> |> |> | that this is a myth. You have no evidence that this is a
> |> |> | myth, only your unbelief is telling you that. Someone's
> |> |> | disbelief does not mean that something doesn't exist.
> |> |> |
> |> |> Hummm, no. I conclude it is a myth because the story has all the
> |> |> trappings of a myth. Mystery people for who there is no explanation
> |> for
> |> |> where they came from. Talking snakes. People blamed for committing
> a
> |> |> crime, when there was no way they could have known they were doing
> |> |> anything wrong. The tree was named "Knowledge of Good and Evil".
> This
> |> |> indicates that Neither Adam or his woman knew what was good and what
> |> was
> |> |> evil. In fact, Yahweh runs back to the pantheon and complains:
> |> |>
> |> | Actually, if you will recall, Eve did know what was good
> |> | and what was bad, and not only that, she rattles it all off
> |> | verbally to the Serpent. When he hears her saying that it is
> |> | bad, he then captures her willingness by his cunning way.
> |> | He knew that she was taken out of man, and that she had
> |> | an achilles heel in that she wanted to please her husband.
> |> | So she wanted to be the smartest wife possible, even as
> |> | smart as God whom she admired I am sure. But in that
> |> | way the serpent deceived her. But she still knew that she
> |> | had been told it was wrong. So she knew not to do it.
> |> | So she was duped and the serpent lied to her. But Adam
> |> | knew that it was definitely wrong. I suppose that he
> |> | regarded what would happen to her and that he got into
> |> | the trouble with her because he didn't want to lose her,
> |> | being that she was a part of himself that he would never
> |> | be able to get back if he lost her. So it is deeper than just
> |> | being tempted with them.
> |> |
> |> How?
> |>
> |> Even Yahweh himself tells the pantheon that his creations are now like
> |> them, knowing good and evil. Adam and the woman did not know they were
> |> doing wrong till AFTER they had eaten the magic fruit and obtained the
> |> knowledge. They were not created with the ability to tell what was
> good
> |> and what was not good. The designer missed a part, a very important
> |> part in fact.
> |>
> | I don't agree with that at all. Eve told the Serpent clearly
> | that it was wrong to eat of the forbidden fruit and that
> | God said that they should not eat of the fruit of that
> | tree, and she even emphasized that they should not even
> | go near it. Adam also knew this. But the New Testament
> | says that Adam was a type of him "that is to come." That
> | one that "was to come," is Jesus, the Seed/Redeemer/
> | Messiah/Savior. I'm sorry to tell you this, but a human
> | being can know what is wrong, know it will not be good
> | for him, know that it will not be pleasing to God, and
> | still want to do, and will do the thing that is wrong and
> | harmful to himself and to others.
> | When you were a child and if your mother or parent said
> | to you "Don't eat a cookie before supper, because it
> | could spoil your meal," you knew that if you ate a cookie
> | when she was not looking, that it was wrong. You did not
> | need to experience her ire or your mischief in order to know
> | that it was wrong. Eve told the serpent point blank that it
> | was just plain wrong. He enticed her, lied to her and she
> | did not become as smart as God. She fell for it hook, line
> | and sinker.
> |
> No, the woman repeated with modifications what she had been told. She
> did not respond with independent thought. She only repeated what she
> was told.
>

>
>
> The name of the tree gives away the plot. The mythical Adam and his
> woman had NO way of knowing what was right and what was wrong, till
> after they ate the magic fruit.
>

>
> Classic mythical story telling with an attempt at a moral at the end.
>
> Nothing more and nothing factual about it.
>

>

>
>
> | at all. So the statement made by God above, is
> | not about just doing what is wrong, so much
> | as it is now having a conscience the people
> | would follow apart from God's will. When
> | they take matters into their own hands, their
> | life will be riddled with pits they can fall into.
>
> They would think for themselves. Something that the gods of all
> theistic sects throughout history have despised. The creation is
> supposed to blindly obey the creator. Failure to do so is met with
> great punishment and separation from the gods.
>
> It is a common theme in all mythologies. The bible is no different it
> it's telling of an old story that was old before the bible was even
> dreamed up.
>

>
> | Adam and Eve, though, put their trust in the
> | Seed/Redeemer that God promised would
> | come.
>
> And that is another mythical tale for another thread.
>
> There is no redeemer and is no need of one because there was no fall, no
> creation, no gods.
>

>
> |> |> Those are obvious indications that the story is a myth, and that
> they
> |> |> myth maker screwed up.
> |> |> |
> |> |> |> 2. Sin is a religious concept. Out side of your religion, it
> has
> |> no
> |> |> |> meaning.
> |> |>
> |> | I don't think it's like that. I don't think Moses made a mistake
> |> | in what he wrote, because he said he was writing what the
> |> | Lord was telling him to write down.
> |> |
> |> It ain't Moses that made the mistake. It was the compilers of the
> |> mythical tales, of which Moses happens to be yet another mythical
> |> character, that made the mistake.
> |>
> | No, the writers of the Bible did not make mistakes.
> | Moses was a real person. It's interesting where your
> | following your own conscience has gotten you though.
> | According to what you have told me, you used to want
> | to be in ministry, and now that you are out of that,
> | look where you have gone with your reasoning about
> | God, the Bible, Moses...and so forth. You can't see
> | all, you don't now all, and you don't have all power,
> | yet you have concluded things as though you can see
> | all that.
> |
> Unfortunately you have this little tiny problem. Contemporary histories
> from the same time, do not support the events of the bible. There was
> no Moses, he is a mythic hero construct, so is Joshua.
>

>
> BTW, I stopped wanting to be in a theist because of what I learned. I
> quit being a theist because I could no longer live a lie. I stopped
> believing that the bible was true when my questions about it not being
> in sync with the rest of accepted history could not be answered.
>
> I became an atheist. And before you go on about what that word means,
> because of what others have told it means, let me clear up that
> misconception right now.
>
> An atheist is nothing more then a person that is NOT a theist. A person
> that does NOT practice any form of theism. It has nothing to do with
> belief in gods or lacking belief in gods. I don't practice any type of
> theism. I am an atheist.
>
> And lest you think like many others that I'm picking on the western
> xtian religion, don't. I am an equal opportunity atheist and question
> ALL forms of theism. Even the ones that supposedly don't have gods,
> such as Buddhism.
>
> |>
> | No...now....you are saying that it is all a myth. You
> | have no evidence that it is a myth, don't you see?
> | If someone gives you *some* evidence, you want
> | more. Because that's the nature of wanting evidence.
> | I've carefully listened to you. You've shown theories
> | that you are taking to be fact, and then you see what
> | is claimed in the Bible to be fact, and you say it is
> | myth. I honestly do believe, though, that you do
> | want to do what it right. But, you see, when somenoe
> | is operating on their own conscience, they can't see
> | beyond it's scope like God can.
> |
> The stories are classical mythology. Super human heroes with contact to
> the gods. Pipe line communications and events that defy the natural
> order of the world and the universe around us.
>
> If that's not mythology, then it is damn fine science fiction.
>

>
> |> |> | Sin is a fact. You evidently presume that a conscience is
> |> |> | only influenced by environmental things. You overlook
> |> |> | that the Holy Spirit can make someone understand that
> |> |> | they are wrong. Adam and Eve had no parents, and they
> |> |> | felt shame when in the presence of God after they had
> |> |> | sinned. If you did some kind of wierd meditation to get
> |> |> | rid of your inhibitions and feelings of guilt, you would
> |> |> | not be able to do that when the Holy Spirit is around
> |> |> | also, bringing conviction. Remember this. It could be an
> |> |> | important clue to you in the future.
> |> |>
> |> |> See above. a) There is no mention of the people created by the
> |> pantheon
> |> |> in Gen 1:27 having "sinned" and b) Adam and his woman could not have
> |> |> known that they were "sinning" because Yahweh had not created them
> with
> |> |> that capacity.
> |> |>
> |> | Here's where knowing the other parts of the Bible
> |> | that pertain to this story help shed light on it. For
> |> | example, in the New Testament, it says about this:
> |> | Romans 5:12:
> |> | "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
> |> | and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for
> |> | that all have sinned:"
> |>
> |> Ahhhh, but as shown, sin is a) a concept only of the story, b) did not
> |> enter the world as the story about it is a myth and c) has no bearing
> on
> |> anyone that views the story as the mythical tale it is.
> |>
> |> You don't accept the concept of Atlas holding up the sky, do you?
> |>
> |> Well, that's mythology too. I see no difference between that mythology
> |> and your mythology.
> |>
> | You are being very honest: You don't SEE any difference.
> | But God does. Are you as smart as God is? Humans can
> | only see so far. If you were the smartest man on the face
> | of the earth, you still would not be able to see what
> | God sees.
> |
> Since the mythical tales can not be used to support the existence of a
> god or gods, your statement is moot.
>
> I am as smart as I need to be to survive in this world and enjoy this
> life. I see no need to muddy the water with gods and theisms. The
> scientific explanation for where and how the earth got here makes more
> sense then the magical explanation of mythology. And since this is the
> only shot I've got at life, why worry about something that no one has
> ever been able to report back from, namely, death.
>

>
> |> | Sin is relative and you are assuming that God is not being
> |> | fair with the man. I trust him and believe that God was
> |> | not out to get man or hurt him in any way. But I can see
> |> | that you don't understand that. It would take a long time
> |> | to discuss it though.
> |> |
> |> Sin is a religious concept needed by those that preach about gods, in
> |> order to frighten people in to believing in the gods. Sin is used as a
> |> control mechanism in order to keep you in line and to keep you from
> |> asking the questions that I have asked you. The clergy use the concept
> |> of sin to manipulate the believers in to towing the party line.
> |>
> | Jesus didn't die for people in order to make them
> | "religious." He died to give them faith and hope.
> | I've answered your questions, Karl. I'm not using
> | "sin" to control you. I don't have power over you
> | or over sin. I'm just saying that you can't see what
> | is around the next bend...and you *know* that's
> | true. You know you are not all-knowing, or that
> | you are all-present, or all-power.
> |
> Well, considering the fact that the Jesus tale is simply another myth,
> no one died for anything.
>
> And again, sin is a theistic concept. Since I am not theistic, the word
> has no meaning for me. I have power over my life and accept
> responsibility for my actions. What do I need this Jesus fellow for?
>

>
> |> If you realize that there was no fall, then you understand that there
> is
> |> no sin.
> |>
> | This is where your conscience has led you, Karl.
> | Are you sure that it is right?
> |
> Yup. The mythology is just that, mythology. It can't hurt me, it can't
> affect me, and it won't change me.
>

>
> |> Thus, the entire salvation myth falls apart and you realize, we are on
> |> our own, no gods need or asked for.
> |>
> | You don't understand this, because you don't
> | have this, but when a person has put their trust
> | in Jesus Christ to be the total payment for all
> | of his sins that he ever has committed, or ever
> | will commit, he will receive the Holy Spirit to
> | live inside of him and be with him forever. But
> | you only theorize that this is a myth. I know
> | it is not a myth.
> 1. Your back to the sin concept which is a religious theme.
>
> 2. Since Jesus was a myth, there is nothing to put my trust into.
>
> 3. Holy Spirit, aka, another mythical construct.
>
> You have to realize my dear that trying to use mythology to convince
> someone to believe as you, very rarely works.
>

>
> And, you state that you "know it is not a myth". Yet you offer nothing
> in the way of objective evidence to support that statement.
>

>
> | His knowing things ahead of time has nothing
> | to do with you and what you choose. When the
> | books are opened, people will see that even
> | those who did not choose him, were given a very
> | equal chance, probably far more than they ever
> | imagine. They don't know who God is. But when
> | they find out who he is, and that they will be
> | separated from him forever and ever, they will
> | spend an eternity realizing that no matter what
> | anyone could say to them, no matter how much
> | they pleaded with them, they would not listen.
>
> It has everything to do with the concept of free will.
>
> You have no free will if your creator knows in advance everything you
> will do and will judge you on that. Even if you were to change your
> mind, your creator knows you will and will judge you on that as well.
>
> An all knowing deity destroys the concept of free will.
>

>
> |> | God knew that this rebellious angel, Satan, had the
> |> | motive of wanting God's throne, and that he would stop
> |> | at nothing to make that happen. So when God created
> |> | man, he knew that he could wrangle things in such a
> |> | way that he could, he thought, outsmart God. But God
> |> | is on to him from the beginning. God planned the Savior
> |> | from the foundations of the earth. He knew how to
> |> | redeem man, and outsmart the devil. He also knew that
> |> | man would sin and fall into danger and become mortal.
> |> | God knows that man mistrusts him. He wants man to
> |> | learn that he is for him and not against him. He wants
> |> | something that everyone wants most in a love relationship,
> |> | and that is trust. It's a two-way thing, too.
> |> | --
> |>
> |> Hmmm, interesting concept. Let's see how this pans out.
> |>
> |> Yahweh, according you your view of the mythology, created EVERYTHING.
> |> That would include the angles. Knowing of course, well in advance of
> |> the creation of the angels, that one of them would turn against him.
> |>
> |> So, Yahweh goes ahead and creates the evil angel anyway.
> |>
> |> Guess that means that Yahweh created the source of the evil that it
> |> hates so much.
> |>
> |> Why?
> |>
> | God did not create Satan to be evil. He was perfect in
> | the day in which he created him "until evil was found
> | in you." God did not make him to be evil, he did that
> | himself because of his great beauty. But because he
> | did turn evil, God used it to his advantage.
>
> According to the mythology, Yahweh KNEW in advance, before the creation
> that Lucifer would turn against him and become Satan.
>
> Yahweh created Lucifer KNOWING in advance that Lucifer would become
> Satan and Yahweh did nothing to change that.
>
> Yahweh purposefully created the very thing Yahweh judges us for.
>

>
> This is following a simple logical progression based on the mythology
> you want me to accept as fact.
>
> Until you can grasp the position I am in, that the bible is nothing more
> then mythology, you can no have a hope of understanding where I come from.
>

>
> Suffice to say, this thread has become considerably long. I have
> trimmed out the parts that are simply running in circles as that does
> nothing to further the debate. If you wish to add them back in, that is
> your prerogative. Do understand that I am not attempting to cause you
> to turn away from your theism. I understand that death is a very scary
> permanent thing and that some people need comfort from the depression it
> brings.
>

>
> However, if you wish to continue, objective evidence for your claims
> goes a long way. You post from the presumption that the bible is not
> mythology and is indeed factual. I have pointed out a number of places
> where the bible is NOT factual and where in fact history shows it to be
> a lie. There are many such instances in the bible, just as there are in
> the Koran, the Vedas and others. Your bible is not alone in being a
> work of story tellers and power hungry control freaks.
>
> You now know how I see the book and why.
>
> Continuation of this debate is entirely up to you.
>

>

>

>

>