> On Dec 3, 7:41 pm, "Sean"
blah.com.au> wrote:>>> On Dec 3, 2:47 pm, tg
earthlink.net> wrote:>>>> On Dec 3, 2:38 pm, Robert Cohen
msn.com> wrote:>>
>>>>> President-for-life-wannabe Chavez is allegedly economically hurting
>>>>> his country as oil production is allegedly way down; though revenues
>>>>> apparently aren't, since the d stuff is currently approx $90+ a
>>>>> barrel
>>>>> (which contains approx 40 galllons of gasolene).
>>
>>>>> He has appparently substantially taken over the oil corporations'
>>>>> assets down there, and production has reportedly "radically"
>>>>> diminished.
>>
>>>>> I suppose he's very idealistic, while in the meantime implementing a
>>>>> socialism paradise has had expected negative consequences.
>>
>>>>> I suppose he is a sincere Marxist leveller, popular with the mucho
>>>>> urban poor, and envisions his oil exporting nation to be a
>>>>> better-off
>>>>> Cuba, while the bourgeoise Venezuelans have barely won something at
>>>>> the election precincts.
>>
>>>>> I've read there is a "car-buying boom" there, and dometic gasolene
>>>>> is
>>>>> cheap: whopeee dooo
>>
>>>>> I can't think he completely comprehends/realizes that he is
>>>>> (seemingly
>>>>> to me from wha i gather) actually wrecking modern economics by
>>>>> alienating so many of the middle and upper strata.
>>
>>>>> If I am sounding the schnooky neoliberal oil company shill, then fug
>>>>> oil companies in the "long run" of course, though meanwhile I fear
>>>>> Chavez making Venezuela a relative economic basket case.
>>
>>>>> Chavez, no
>>>>> Venzuela, si
>>
>>>> NEWSFLASH
>>
>>>> Commie Venezuela Holds Fair Election
>>>> Capitalist Russia Doesn't
>>
>>>> But hey, let's talk about everything else.
>>
>>>> -tg- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>> re: Putin
>>
>>> He has reportedly eighty percent popularity: They appraently luv their
>>> authoritarian nationalist when the bumbling Yeltsins couldn't do
>>> miracles.
>>
>>> Putin dictatorship has reportedly confiscated Yukos and the other big
>>> oil, and put(in) his henchpersons in charge.
>>
>>> Recall shock capitalism of the nineties, and the masses reportedly ate
>>> potatoes and potatoes and ...hating Gorby.
>>
>>> Russia reportedly "achieved" the gross national product of Portugal in
>>> Boris' relative "freer market capitalism," which was more chaos than
>>> apparently the real people could literally stomach.
>>
>>> Putin has expediently and opportunistically pleased his public; and
>>> here again favorable OIL pricing is the apparent major decisive
>>> factor.
>>
>> Aha ..... so it's cheap Oil?
>>
>> Um, have you ever heard of the term "free press" Robert?
>>
>> as opposed to Govt. controlled media - be they socialist Russia or
>> capitist
>> Russia that is.
>>
>> Oh well, given the quality of "news/media" sources in the USA I am far
>> from
>> surprised by the level of "opinion" about such matters.
>>
>>> Chess genius & libertarian (or perhaps intellectual idealist social
>>> democrat) Gary Kasparov etal doesn't like it; though Vladamir's
>>> repression with both some affluence and simple plentiful meat, bread
>>> 'n butter is working a helluvalot better than that foolhardy "chaotic
>>> de-socialism."
>>
>>> It ain't pretty idealism, though understandable pragmatism.
>>
>> Yeah, it's called staying in power ---- no matter what the
>> cost ----that's
>> not the basis of a healthy and vibrant institutional democracy Robert.
>>
>> Democracy and basic freedoms for the average Citizen is NOT just founded
>> upon the "apparent" ability to attend a booth and cast a vote in an
>> election. It also requires rule of Law, a decent Constitution, unrequited
>> freedom of the Press, fair and equitable FOI Laws, and functional
>> Educational system ... and a lot more.
>>
>> But what would a humdrum Chess player know about such obcure things given
>> he's obviously just a pinky socialist, well "apparently" huh?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Putin should not steal or be perceived as personally corrupt, because
>>> he'll seemingly be a hero or popular leader in modern Russian history.-
>>> Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> re: russian de-volution
>
> Yeah, it's sad, and I should re-emphasize that.
>
Hi robert, i understand that about you.
> Poisoning/shooting opponents and courageous journalists is especially
> tragic.
>
> Intimidating Europe & some former satellite(s) by natural gas pipeline
> cutoff is bluntness.
>
> I'm obviously making the point that those 1990s' democratic
> institutions and economic reforms SEEMINGLY DID NOT WORK, and the
> people were reportedly nostalgicallly pining for Uncle Joe Steel-
> Stalin-SOB to get the trains on time.
>
> Perestroika and glasnost are particularly empty slogans for too many
> Russians who felt poorer in the nineties than before.
>
> Abe Maslow's number one need/"value"is food: That's where they were in
> their democracy experiment--no wonder.
>
> The gangsterism that seemed to break-out (damped-down now or what?)
> was about anarchy/insecurity, demonstrating the weakness of "reform
> government that can't shoot straight."
>
> Liberals and non-cynics the worldover are a bit horrified by what has
> shaken out: fascism or getting there.
>
> Putin is the practitioner of real politik; while the overwhelming
> majority apparently perceives being better better-off materially, and
> thanks to O-I-L (but of which the U.S.A. has been particularly
> maladaptive & quagmired).
>
> Do not interpret this as anything more than an observation that
> democracy isn't instant coffee.
>
GREAT point ... i totally agree ... but the word gets too easily tossed
around as if it's real, when it isn't. In many places it really is just a
"word" not a reality.
I was listening on radio the other day to East Timor's new president Horta
[ great guy lived in Australia during their occupation under Indonesia - a
talented man]
Anyway, he mentioned when he recently addressed the UN security Council
regarding ongoing deployment and support from the UN for ET.
Well, he went through when he gave "formal speech" pleading for continued
assistance ..... after which he paused, and spoke instead like 'man to man
with no BS' and he pointed out to them the following :
If a small business man opened up a Coffee Shop in New York, it would take
[ usually ] 5 years before he could say that business was stable and a
success. Everyone knows this who knows anything about business. [ I know I
do fwiw ]
Then he said, you guys, East Timor is a fledgling Nation of a million people
or so, on independance all our institutions were trashed, riots & murder
occured after almost 30 years of Civil war and occupation by Indonesia
......... the Nation today is barely 5 years old, how could anyone expect
that such a nation could be standing on it's own two feet after such a short
time? Please we need you ongoing support, or our nation will fail. [ words
to that effect ]
Apparently, this "chat" changed the minds of several members who Govt's had
already decided to cut aid, and UN personell in East Timor.
Now, remember G Bush senior and the time when Gorby passed the reigns to
Yeltsin ...... pause for while and see how many things you can remember
where the RICH West, with all the long years in real expereince running free
markets and institutional democracies, actually support the Russian people
to create a new vibrant Nation State, [ let alone the other Satelite nations
that split from the USSR . ]
As a reference check the Kyoto agreements about projected "economic" status
in the old eastern block through to 2012, and how all have reduced GHG
emmissions because their economies haven't gone anywhere near those GDP
projections.
So, when I look at Putin and what the lay of the land is like there today
... whilst I may point obvious decifiences in the "status quo" and their
systems ... it's not so much a criticism of the Yeltins or the Putins, or
the Russian people themselves .... because given what has happened ... [ and
use tiny East Timor as a comparison ] it is NO SURPRISE that what goes down
there today happens ... how could it have turned out any other way?
"everything is always as it is supposed to be"
Our culture entrains us to be critical and find anything or anyone to blame
.... that allays us having to look a lot deeper and back thru time a lot
longer than we would like to consider.
Not to mention that everytime we point the finger at someone else and either
blame them or laugh ... there is always 3 fingers pointing back at us.
Moral of the story?
If the West, or media pundits want to jump all over Russia, or even
Venezuela, they best cosider where those 3 fingers are to!!!.
No one is innocent in this game mate ... take care.
more below ....
> They've murdered, gulaged, and run-off many of their ... Jews and non-
> conformists under both the Communists and the czars.
>
> Thus I feel lucky my maternal
> grandparents decided to leave circa 1914, and my grandmother's accent
> was forever thick w/ yiddish and i supppose some Russian.
>
Robert, you were speaking about "reincarnation" in another thread ......
luck has nothing to do about it. It's about wise choices, or really just
"choices".
So if your g/mother never left Russia ... where would you be now?
Quick anecdote of recent news I received. 30 years ago I met a new friend
via work ... and we became close for years, attended weddings christings etc
....
An aunty had forwarded family tree info years back, and I studied about my
ancestors arriving in Australia back in the 1860's. There was even a
manifest of all people on the ship .....
A few weeks back, I got some more info, one of the families name was spelt
wrong [ old handwritten manifests ] and the new name was was my friends
surname, his ancestors here in Oz!! So BOTH our ancestors came out on the
same ship from England. There was a few other past personal co-incidences
over the years that easily made the "penny drop" for me that this was much
more than just a co-incidence and irrelevant.
Australia is known as "the lucky country" ... but there's another aphorism
that goes "we make our own luck".
Both are true!
It helps to keep an open mind, and be aware of our own expereinces over
time, and not be too quick to discount the obvious. Cheers Sean
> She told me she saw the czar's white horses
> 'em>.
>
>
>
