Hi fred,
The reply thingy not working properly with >> so I'll sumarise everything
here.
I am not assuming roads can't be built by private money, or private
contractors. I don't live under a rock mate!
It's great India is getting a highway built -- I couldn;t care less who is
building it, or who is paying for it. Is it a surprise that it's "private"
and includes Tolls - aaah, NO!
So what? Toll roads have been getting built for thousands of years Fred. :-)
Regarding your claim of a non-seqitur on the I-95 freeway - it isn't FRED.
It's spot on the topic you were raising. It's about how real life actually
works Fred. I'll explain further below when closing.
Next, fwiw, I am not too stupid to argue with, and nor is my imagination
strained in the least. You are, and have been presenting a particualr point
of view, and I am simply challegning that in a hope that you might be able
to expand your point of view into a more wholistic, down to earth, and
rational one.
IMHO, your pov is extremist and incredibly narrow in scope. For some reason
or other you have [ or you present it here as ] a view that keeps saying
that "private busniess" and the "free market" is the best way, nay the only
sane way, to do anything.
That is ludicrous, and ignores so much reality of the world in which we live
that it beggars belief. Yes, I do not believe it.
No, I am not some radical socialist who thinks business sucks, or that Govt
is the font of all knowledge and can do no wrong. So please get a grip. I
see a world where both are necessary, and entirely compatible. And rightly
so!
Like the USA and the UK we basically have a conservative and liberal side to
our politcal parties. But oddly enough it was the "socialists" here that
floated the Aussie dollar in the 80's, sold off Govt assets like airlines,
banks, power plants, and telcos!!!
And Fred, it was the socialist type Govt's that introduced flexible work
practices, and enterprise agreements between workers and companies, and
introduced legal penalties for unfair strikes, and who backed the Airlines
against the Airline Pilots strike!!! Like gee, how weird is that?
It was the socialist Govt that disbanded the 2 airline policy in this nation
that brought true competitiveness in the airline industry that led to better
services and lower costs for consumers. The ones that wanted to stop that
were the 2 bloody PRIVATE airlines themselves! Your so-called
free-marketeers and private corporations with shareholders who's only
interest was THEIR self-interest and bank accounts - not the flying public
that used their services.
The GOVT did that Fred ... a god-damned socialist Govt Fred!!!
INDIA - is a very weird place. Using that as an example of the great
benefits of the free market and the dire straits of Govt control is
ludicrous. It's a totally different culture for all sorts of reasons. Yes
it's a democracy but a very odd one because hardly any of the billion or so
people would have any clue what it meant, let alone a free market system.
The people there are different Fred, living in a different time and space
than we have for the last 50 years or so. but albeit changing slowly.
The issue there isn't a simple notion of private is great, and govt is bad,
although one could find endless examples of a mind numbing govt beauracy and
lack of enginuity. It goes far deeper than that. One just doesn't flick a
switch, scrap the Govt and nirvana will break out if private business had
it's way.
For one thing, India has never had a "free public school system for all".
The populace is uneducated, and the only ones who got an education were
those who could afford it, [ doctors lawyers govt employees ] a very small
percentage since nationhood, but now growing. It's education that has held
back that nation primarily imho, but that has to do with their intransient
CULTURE and not a lack of "private schools" or a free market. But it's
changing.
Life is just much more complicated than how you "present your arguments"
here in your black and white style of all Govt bad, and all private business
good. It just ain't so.
There is far more colour to this picture than you "appear" are willing to
embrace or acknowledge openly and honestly, that is, your point of view is
so far removed from the reality and the complexities of why things are like
they are, be it here, or the USA, or in India, or anywhere.
The single player monopoly Telco that was privatised here in the 90's is
still the most expensive, beauracratic, inefficent, high cost, non-competive
Telco in the nation. It has been repeatedly using it's pre-existing market
share, and ownership of the infrastructure to restrict competiveness, to
maintain it's market share thru abuse of it's excessive Monopoly holdings.
It fights the Govt every step of the way, as well as the ACCC which monitors
anti-competive & free market practices by Private companies. It has LIED
through it;s teeth about what it can and can't do. Since Privatisation it's
share price is still below the original, it;s return to investors is lousy,
it;s service delivery is lousy and it's pricing to consumers is lousy.
This is the dark side of Private Business Fred, and one doesn't need to look
very far to see it, if one has their eyes open. It happens in the USA for
all sorts of reasons, some such as Govt policies, but mostly because
SELF_interest is a powerful motivator to maintain control over any area one
seeks to control of. And by self-interest I mean greed and egomania.
What I suggest is to stop tarring everything in the same brush, and get far
more specific about what are good business practices, and what are good Govt
practices and what are bad practices by both elements.
I believe in the idea of "Horses for Courses". Yes indeed private enterprise
has it's advantages, but it also has severe disadvantages if left to it's
own devices. Your current implosion in financial markets, recession, and the
housing market is a classic case. Just like ANY government, Business cannot
and should not be trusted to act with altruistic desire - but from
self-interest, not the Public Interest, or the national interest.
Private business goes out of business for all sorts of reasons, and not
being competive and losing customers due to poor service is one of lesser
reasons. You seem to present a view that not going out of business is a
primary concern for Business to act ethically and competively, and deliver
efficient services to their customers. Sure in some cases that is true, but
what is also true is that PEOPLE who own and run many private concerns
really couldn't care less. Many people are quite willing to operate
non-competive businesses, with lousy practices to customers and employees,
and skim off as much money for themselves and see the business going belly
up is the LAST of their concerns. It happens all the time Fred.
Fred people run private businesses, there is NO entity called the "free
market" it simply doesn't exist. Business and banks etc do in fact "control"
things from all manner of ways, and that includes controlling as much as
possible Govt policy, and they are quite ok in lying through their teeth to
both Govt and Shareholders, and the PUblic, for their own self-interest,
company bonuses and retirment plans.
Really, Fred, I think at times you live in a dreamland about this thing you
call the "free market". As our recently deceased George Carlin would say
"It's all Bullshit"
Why do you believe it so strongly as be an article of "religious faith" in
your life?
Checks and balances are needed on BOTH Govt and Business in this world
today - neither can be trusted. And neither can be depended upon to operate
ethically. Why? Because "people" are behind BOTH, and people are fallible,
and greedy, even stupid, but often misguided at times.
eg Look at Zimbabwe ....... that is NOT an example of how bad Govt is, but
how bad Govt "can be" when insane people are in charge of it, and
self-interest groups manage to get control of the Govt.
Look at the USA .... overwhelmingly I;d say that rather than socialists, or
losers gainign control of the Govt there it's PRIVATE Companies and
religious/moralist special interest groups that have got your Govt by the
balls and have done for decades............ no matter which Party is in
power.
I'd suggest that rather than simpifing the problem as being "Govt vs
Private" you look a little deeper and see how your Govt system and political
process is broken - AND FIX IT. In the process look at how your so-called
Private but mis-labled "free market system" is also broken and FIX THAT too.
BOTH have serious problems that other OECD nations simply do not have to
such a degree.
So you see Fred, I am not the one who is too stupid to argue with. I am not
arguing, I am simply pointing out that the way you are looking at this issue
is immature and flawed. There is nothing really to argue about, and I don't
argue, have no interest in it.
I don;t care whether you see my pov as I see it, or if you agree or
disagree. I really don;t care mate. But I see things totally differently
than you do. Deal with it, or by all means simply ignore what I say. [
wouldn't be the first time LOL ]
Really I don't care either way, because I know I grasp this issue with a
greater clarity and understanding than you do. And I haven't even touched on
the human psychological and karmic and cultural aspects of this. Are you up
to that level of dialogue and discussion Fred?
No, I didn;'t think so. :-)
Are you really so sure I'm too stupid and unimaginative to grasp complex
issues Fred? I don't think so, in fact I know so.
Anyway, take care Fred. Thanks for the opportunity to express my particular
points of view. :-))
YOUR's Sean
"Fred Weiss" papertig.com> wrote in message
news:b8ecb8e6-e1ba-4f8c-be3a-7f6e0bdb2712@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 24, 12:56 am, "Sean" bro.org> wrote:
