On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:46:14 -0700 (PDT), schill_dan@yahoo.com
wrote:

: On Jul 20, 6:17 pm, Gabriel hotmail.com> wrote:
: > On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:23:03 +0100, "THE BORG" cube.com>
: > wrote:
: >
: > :: yahoo.com> wrote in message
: >
: > :news:d803f34e-cf03-4c6c-bfd7-e11f3a55ad08@w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
: > : > After a bunch of arguing with the atheist discussion group, the whole
: > : > thing came to a crashing halt after I asked someone a simple question:
: > : >
: > : > "Hey Mark, do you need to prove to yourself through the scientific
: > : > method that you exist in order to believe that you do?"
: > : >
: > : > Atheists have no response to questions of that line of thought.  It's
: > : > funny how even the simplest of logic can leave a lot of room for them
: > : > to doubt their disbelief in God.
: > : >
: > :
: > : It is blatantly obvious from the human existence that
: > : a)  Humans have a God but he does not love them.
: > : b)  Humans do not have a God.
: > : The cancers and diseases and ingestion of food are the evidence of the lack
: > : of love from any deity.  
: >
: > Hi Borg,
: >
: > No, cancers and disease are the result of mankind's sin against
: > God, more specifically and first of all Adam. The earth was then
: > cursed, and the saved and the unsaved alike are subject to this
: > world's cursed, deteriorating condition.
: >
: > Genesis 3:17-19 KJVR
: > 17  And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the
: > voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I
: > commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the
: > ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days
: > of thy life;
: > 18  Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and
: > thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
: > 19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou
: > return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust
: > thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
: >
: > People often claim it's not fair, as Adam is the one that first
: > disobeyed God. But in response a person must ask himself: have
: > you sinned against God? A look at the Ten Commandments alone
: > shows that you have.
: >
: > Romans 3:23 KJVR  For all have sinned, and come short of the
: > glory of God;
: >
: > And imagine for a moment people who have persecuted you, insulted
: > you, and hate you. If you had a chance to save them from
: > destruction by dying for them, would you? I highly doubt it.
: >
: > But that's exactly what Jesus did for us, for those who hate and
: > reject him alike. We have sinned against our Creator, and there
: > *must* be punishment for sin (breaking God's Law), but while we
: > were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
: >
: > Romans 5:7-10 KJVR
: > 7  For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet
: > peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
: > 8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
: > yet sinners, Christ died for us.
: > 9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be
: > saved from wrath through him.
: > 10  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by
: > the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be
: > saved by his life.
: >
: > To die for those who hate you to give them a chance to be saved
: > from their sins, and repent. Now *that* is love that is unheard
: > of!
: >
: > So have you repented from sinning your whole life?
: >
: > If not, you realize it's the other way around: God offers His
: > forgiveness to everyone that would accept it.
: >
: > Romans 10:13 KJVR  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the
: > Lord shall be saved.
: >
: > They just need to repent, and call on Christ, the Son of God, to
: > save them. Very few do, and most will choose to die without
: > forgiveness.
: >
: > Jesus said,
: > Luke 13:3 KJVR  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall
: > all likewise perish.
: >
: > Matthew 7:13-14 KJVR
: > 13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and
: > broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be
: > which go in thereat:
: > 14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which
: > leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
: >
: > If people want protection from their God, the least they can do
: > is to first repent from sinning their entire life against the One
: > who created them, rather than making demands of their Creator
: > without even making a pretense at repenting.
: >
: > So it's the other way around: few there are that love the One who
: > created them, He who loved them first while they were sinners and
: > died for them. Many there are that refuse to repent and submit
: > themselves to the righteousness of God as their Lord and savior.
: >
: > : The love of any deity is immense and protects from
: > : cancers and diseases and love replaces food product.
: > :
: > : Thus humans may have a God - but their God does not love them.
: > : Or humans do not have a God.
: > : There are ONLY two alternatives.
: > : And these proofs or evidence are universal in nature and apply to any life
: > : form.
: > : THE BORG
:
: The theology presented doesn't add up. Why did God have to have
: himself killed in order to stop himself from punishing sinners?

God is a holy, righteous God. As such, justice *must* be
satisfied for sinning (much like a good judge *must* see that
justice is done even if a criminal is truly sorry for committing
his crimes).

Psalms 89:14 KJVR Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy
throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Psalms 145:17-18 KJVR The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and
holy in all his works. 18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that
call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

Romans 6:23 KJVR For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of
God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So you have two options
[1] Satisfy the justice yourself by being cast into hell when you
are judged for having broken God's law throughout your entire
life,

Revelation 21:8 KJVR But the fearful, and unbelieving, and
abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and
idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which
burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

or

[2] Allow Jesus to satisfy the justice of your breaking God's
law.

Romans 5:8 KJVR But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 5:24 KJVR Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth
my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting
life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from
death unto life.

: Couldn't God just as easily had said, "How about I don't punish people
: who repent."

Would you be satisfied with murderers and rapists and all other
criminals being let go if they just said they were sorry? I
wouldn't.

But if someone was willing to step in and save you from the
punishment of breaking the law, it would be my reasonable service
that you obey what they said to keep from breaking the law in the
future, and show your gratitude towards such a person.

So yes, what God did was not easy: He willingly took the
punishment for us, paid the fine for us as the sinless Son of God
by willingly suffering and dying on the cross for our sins, and
raising from death three days later.

But it doesn't change the fact that all we have to do is be
willing to repent and accept this amazing gift, and trust in that
amazing gift *alone* as the way to be saved from the punishment
of sins.

Will people do this? Many refuse to repent to begin with. Many of
those who repent do not trust that what Christ did is *alone*
enough to save them, and rely instead on good works, or works of
their church to save them, on taking communion, and so on, and
those people will not be saved either. With so many going astray,
you might think very few will get to heaven, and you'd be right:

Matthew 7:13-14 KJVR Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is
the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and
many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the
gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few
there be that find it.

Have you repented and called on Christ to be your Lord and
Savior, and trusting on what He did *alone* as the only way to be
saved from the punishment of your sins?