evolution and the biological models of life and the psyche are solely
dependent on determinism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

determinism says that all reality we experience is due to a prior cause
and that no intervention in that cause happens

the contradiction to determinism is that there can be nothing like
thermodynamics in a closed system without intervention, that first cause
would have had to have been from outside the system, and if you are a
realist, you believe in one reality, and therefore determinism is
contradicted, there cannot be any outside or two realities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism

the introduction of random quantum events (which we do NEVER observe)
would make an indeterminate system, not a determinate one, in addition
the idea that quantum events are random is a stretch of the truth, the
Uncertainty Principle says we will always be uncertain when trying to
measure both location and momentum of particles due to the influence of
the measurement apparatus, uncertain does not equal random

that leaves free will as the only standing observed indeterminate causer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

On 25 Mag, 14:18, Average Joe comcast.net> wrote:

In article comcast.com>,
Average Joe comcast.net> writes:

So how come so many of your fellow reality-deniers claim that it's
pure randomness?

On 25 May, 13:18, Average Joe comcast.net> wrote:

On May 25, 8:18 am, Average Joe comcast.net>
wrote:

No. That is the definition of causal. Stochastic systems can be
causal, but are not deterministic.

Deterministic mechanics produces thermodynamics in the thermodynamic
limit (number of particles to infinity).
In this limit the determinism and time reversibility are lost.
Thermodynamics is an approximate truth which only applies to large
systems.
Deterministic mechanics is the more fundamental truth which can be
used to derive thermodynamics.

(all speaking classically)

You ARE NOT the Average Joe of the past that spamafied this NG into
a frothing frenzy. No that's just a name you use to get some
attention
and I suspect you have used a dozen other names when you posted to
ADP in the past week or two.

Average Joe wrote:

On 25-May-2007, Average Joe comcast.net> wrote:

kmurphy004@houston.rr.com wrote:

"Determinism gains impetus from the idea that if we put a supercomputer
on the moon, for instance, and input all the mechanics of all the atoms
on the earth then it is possible to predict the future and it is
ridiculous and contrived. It has no philosophical value whatsoever.
It's basically science fiction."

The real definition of science fiction is scientific possibility not yet
implemented, not monster movies or spooky religious bullshit.

I'm not so sure about time travel, but there are many other
possibilities that are not being exploited. Time is a very interesting
subject, however.

In my opinion, one of the major flaws in the study of physics is that
all time is based on the duration of the day on Earth. A day on Mars is
much different, etc.

There should be an absolute unit of time which would be true at any
point in the universe. That is, we should not have to convert all
formulas to Earth time.

kmurphy004@houston.rr.com wrote:

Chip Flintknapper wrote:

Um, this already happened a long, long time ago. The fundamental unit of
time in physics is the second, which (though it *originally* came from
dividing an Earth day into 86 400 parts) is now officially defined as
the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to
the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of
the caesium-133 atom.

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