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Author: RaaNRaaN Date: Dec 28, 2007 19:31
On Dec 12, 12:46 pm, "Peter Olcott" SeeScreen.com> wrote:> Quoted from page 43 of the ZEN doctrine of no-mind by D.T.
> Suzuki:
>
> This fundamental discrepancy between Hui-neng and Shen-hsiu
> in the conception of self-nature, which is the same thing as
> the Buddha-nature, has caused them to run in opposite
> directions as regards the practice of Dhyäna; that is, in
> the method of tso-ch'an (zazen in Japanese). Read the
> following gatha by Shen-hsiu:
>
> Our body is the Bodhi-tree,
> And our mind a mirror bright;
> Carefully we wipe them hour by hour
> And let no dust alight.
>
> In the dust-wiping type of meditation (tso-ch'an, zazen) it
> is not easy to go further than the tranquillization of the
> mind; it is so apt to stop short at the stage of quiet
> contemplation, which is designated by Hui-neng 'the practice ...
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Author: Peter OlcottPeter Olcott Date: Dec 28, 2007 19:35
My point exactly.
"RaaN" hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4f097bf5-4338-4e45-bba4-585ccabe7d8f@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 12, 12:46 pm, "Peter Olcott" SeeScreen.com>
wrote:> Quoted from page 43 of the ZEN doctrine of no-mind by D.T.
> Suzuki:
>
> This fundamental discrepancy between Hui-neng and
> Shen-hsiu
> in the conception of self-nature, which is the same thing
> as
> the Buddha-nature, has caused them to run in opposite
> directions as regards the practice of Dhy
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Author: RaaNRaaN Date: Dec 28, 2007 19:45
On Dec 28, 10:35 pm, "Peter Olcott" SeeScreen.com> wrote:> My point exactly.
>
> "RaaN" hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4f097bf5-4338-4e45-bba4-585ccabe7d8f@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 12, 12:46 pm, "Peter Olcott" SeeScreen.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>> Quoted from page 43 of the ZEN doctrine of no-mind by D.T.
>> Suzuki:
>
>> This fundamental discrepancy between Hui-neng and
>> Shen-hsiu
>> in the conception of self-nature, which is the same thing
>> as
>> the Buddha-nature, has caused them to run in opposite
>> directions as regards the practice of Dhyäna; that is, in ...
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Author: Awaken21Awaken21 Date: Dec 28, 2007 21:01
On Dec 28, 10:35Â pm, "Peter Olcott" SeeScreen.com> wrote:> My point exactly.
Except you don't sit Zazen 6-8 hours a day like these Zen monks did.
Remeber both sides of this argument sit Zazen to a rigourous schedule.
You think that being the case they might be talking about something
you're just not getting?
You still haven't solved your first koan.
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Author: Awaken21Awaken21 Date: Dec 28, 2007 21:40
On Dec 28, 10:45Â pm, RaaN hotmail.com> wrote:> On Dec 28, 10:35 pm, "Peter Olcott" SeeScreen.com> wrote:
>>> My point exactly.
>
>
> The point is not that sitting will accomplish nothing
> But that sitting to accomplish something is futile.
> --
> RaaN
Raan answers the koan effortlessly. Not even a koan was it?
ha
The Master knew exactly what his student was up to. It's kind of
amazing how intimate the relationship between the student and teacher
is.
>> "RaaN" hotmail.com> wrote in message>
>>news:4f097bf5-4338-4e45-bba4-585ccabe7d8f@ e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Dec 12, 12:46 pm, "Peter Olcott" SeeScreen.com>
>> wrote...
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Author: Peter OlcottPeter Olcott Date: Dec 28, 2007 21:45
My take on the conversation below is that he said that Zazen
is completely useless, a total waste of time, and wrong
view. I hold my view tentatively, and I simultaneously hold
the opposite view that others here have proposed. I
currently allocate more weight to Zazen being useless than
it being worthwhile.
What has worked very well for me in the past has been
adopting new views by adopting new lines-of-reasoning. This
has worked very well, and provided significant fruits. So
far my every attempt at ZaZen has at best resulting in about
the same effect as a beer.
"Awaken21" gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7d79928a-6f1f-4052-9abb-9ef4aa03ac18@j64g2000hsj.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 28, 10:35 pm, "Peter Olcott" SeeScreen.com>
wrote:> My point exactly.
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Author: Peter OlcottPeter Olcott Date: Dec 28, 2007 21:54
It is possible to take this passage this way, it is also
possible to take it to mean that ZaZen is wrong view. If
Raan's view is correct I would have expected it to have been
stated more emphatically rather than implicitly.
In other words to make it clear that Raan's view is correct,
the original author would have gone on to say that no
striving for realization can ever possibly succeed,
realization can only spontaneously arise when no effort is
made to attain it.
Also it can't be this view because it was reported that
Buddha earnestly sought realization for many years, and (it
was reported that) eventually realization did arise.
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Author: oxtailoxtail Date: Dec 29, 2007 05:38
Peter Olcott wrote:
> My take on the conversation below is that he said that Zazen
> is completely useless, a total waste of time, and wrong
> view. I hold my view tentatively, and I simultaneously hold
> the opposite view that others here have proposed. I
> currently allocate more weight to Zazen being useless than
> it being worthwhile.
>
> What has worked very well for me in the past has been
> adopting new views by adopting new lines-of-reasoning. This
> has worked very well, and provided significant fruits. So
> far my every attempt at ZaZen has at best resulting in about
> the same effect as a beer.
>
What would a person without self do
in a world full of people attached to self?
--
~Oxtail
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Author: RaaNRaaN Date: Dec 29, 2007 10:10
On Dec 29, 8:38 am, oxtail newvessel.com> wrote:> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> My take on the conversation below is that he said that Zazen
>> is completely useless, a total waste of time, and wrong
>> view. I hold my view tentatively, and I simultaneously hold
>> the opposite view that others here have proposed. I
>> currently allocate more weight to Zazen being useless than
>> it being worthwhile.
>
>> What has worked very well for me in the past has been
>> adopting new views by adopting new lines-of-reasoning. This
>> has worked very well, and provided significant fruits. So
>> far my every attempt at ZaZen has at best resulting in about
>> the same effect as a beer.
>
> What would a person without self do
> in a world full of people attached to self?
>
> --
> ~Oxtail ...
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Author: Awaken21Awaken21 Date: Dec 29, 2007 14:07
On Dec 29, 12:54Â am, "Peter Olcott" SeeScreen.com> wrote:> It is possible to take this passage this way, it is also
> possible to take it to mean that ZaZen is wrong view. If
> Raan's view is correct I would have expected it to have been
> stated more emphatically rather than implicitly.
Meditation is central to Zen, it goes without saying so and has for
thousands of years. Stop by any Chan or Zen Temple in any country,
from any sect, and see for yourself.
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