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Date: Dec 18, 2007 04:18
"Katyayana! When one contemplates correctly the
arisal of the world (loka samudaya), one does not
give rise to the view that the world is non-existent
(natthita, Skt. nastita). When one contemplates
correctly the cessation of the world (loka nirodha),
one does not give rise to the view that the world is
existent (atthita, Skt. astita). Katyayana! The
Tathagata does not approach these two extremes
(ubho anta, Skt. ubhav antav) and teaches the Law
by the middle [majjhena, Skt. madhyamaya
pratipada, by the middle path]: to wit, this being,
that is, this arising, that arises, namely, dependent
on ignorance, the compositions [arise], etc. until:
thus arises this whole mass of suffering; this not
being, that is not, this ceasing, that ceases, namely
ignorance ceasing, the compositions cease, etc...
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Author: RahulaRahula Date: Dec 18, 2007 04:38
Hi,
I would like to add, for AB's sake, if there is a self, the Buddha
would have said so to Vacchagota. But he didn't. Whu? Because it
contradicts his teaching.
"If I
-- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self --
were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the
arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?"
Regards,
Rahula
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Author: RahulaRahula Date: Dec 18, 2007 05:02
Hi Tang Huyen,
You asked for my opinion. Let me quote Walpola Rahula, "What the
Buddha taught", p.66:
"According to the Buddha's teaching, it is wrong to hold the opinion
'I have no self' (which is the annihilationist theory) as to hold the
opinion 'I have self' (which is the eternalist theory), because both
are fetters, both arising out of the false idea 'I AM'. The correct
position with regard to the question of Anatta is not to take hold of
any opinions or views, but to see things objectively as they are
without mental projections, to see that what we call 'I' or 'being',
is only a combination of physical and mental aggregates, which are
working together interdependently in a flux of momentary change within
the law of cause and effect, and that there is nothing permanent,
everlasting, unchanging and eternal in the whole existence.
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Author: jfezl07jfezl07 Date: Dec 18, 2007 07:21
On 18 Dec, 05:02, Rahula yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Tang Huyen,
>
> You asked for my opinion. Let me quote Walpola Rahula, "What the
> Buddha taught", p.66:
>
> "According to the Buddha's teaching, it is wrong to hold the opinion
> 'I have no self' (which is the annihilationist theory) as to hold the
> opinion 'I have self' (which is the eternalist theory), because both
> are fetters, both arising out of the false idea 'I AM'. The correct
> position with regard to the question of Anatta is not to take hold of
> any opinions or views, but to see things objectively as they are
> without mental projections, to see that what we call 'I' or 'being',
> is only a combination of physical and mental aggregates, which are
> working together interdependently in a flux of momentary change within
> the law of cause and effect, and that there is nothing permanent,
> everlasting, unchanging and eternal in the whole existence.
>
> Here, naturally a question arises: If there is no Atman or Self, who
> gets the result of karma (actions)? No one can answer this question ...
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Date: Dec 18, 2007 08:29
"Tang Huyen" gmail.com[remove]> wrote in message
news:13mfejpkip5aj9f@news.supernews.com...
> "Katyayana! When one contemplates correctly the
> arisal of the world (loka samudaya), one does not
> give rise to the view that the world is non-existent
> (natthita, Skt. nastita). When one contemplates
> correctly the cessation of the world (loka nirodha),
> one does not give rise to the view that the world is
> existent (atthita, Skt. astita). Katyayana! The
> Tathagata does not approach these two extremes
> (ubho anta, Skt. ubhav antav) and teaches the Law
> by the middle [majjhena, Skt. madhyamaya
> pratipada, by the middle path]: to wit, this being,
> that is, this arising, that arises, namely, dependent
> on ignorance, the compositions [arise], etc. until:
> thus arises this whole mass of suffering; this not
> being, that is not, this ceasing, that ceases, namely
> ignorance ceasing, the compositions cease, etc.
> until: thus ceases this whole mass of suffering." SA,
> 262, 67a, SN, III, 132-135 (22, 90). ...
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Author: Dave KDave K Date: Dec 18, 2007 09:28
On Dec 18, 7:18 am, Tang Huyen gmail.com[remove]>
wrote:
> "Katyayana! When one contemplates correctly the
> arisal of the world (loka samudaya), one does not
> give rise to the view that the world is non-existent
> (natthita, Skt. nastita). When one contemplates
> correctly the cessation of the world (loka nirodha),
> one does not give rise to the view that the world is
> existent (atthita, Skt. astita). Katyayana! The
> Tathagata does not approach these two extremes
> (ubho anta, Skt. ubhav antav) and teaches the Law
> by the middle [majjhena, Skt. madhyamaya
> pratipada, by the middle path]: to wit, this being,
> that is, this arising, that arises, namely, dependent
> on ignorance, the compositions [arise], etc. until:
> thus arises this whole mass of suffering; this not
> being, that is not, this ceasing, that ceases, namely
> ignorance ceasing, the compositions cease, etc.
> until: thus ceases this whole mass of suffering." SA,
> 262, 67a, SN, III, 132-135 (22, 90). ...
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Author: Dave KDave K Date: Dec 18, 2007 09:42
> On 18 Dec, 05:02, Rahula yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>> Hi Tang Huyen,
>
>> You asked for my opinion. Let me quote Walpola Rahula, "What the
>> Buddha taught", p.66:
>
>> "According to the Buddha's teaching, it is wrong to hold the opinion
>> 'I have no self' (which is the annihilationist theory) as to hold the
>> opinion 'I have self' (which is the eternalist theory), because both
>> are fetters, both arising out of the false idea 'I AM'. The correct
>> position with regard to the question of Anatta is not to take hold of
>> any opinions or views, but to see things objectively as they are
>> without mental projections, to see that what we call 'I' or 'being',
>> is only a combination of physical and mental aggregates, which are ...
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Author: jfezl07jfezl07 Date: Dec 18, 2007 11:17
On 18 Dec, 09:42, Dave K yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 18 Dec, 05:02, Rahula yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> Hi Tang Huyen,
>
>>> You asked for my opinion. Let me quote Walpola Rahula, "What the
>>> Buddha taught", p.66:
>
>>> "According to the Buddha's teaching, it is wrong to hold the opinion
>>> 'I have no self' (which is the annihilationist theory) as to hold the
>>> opinion 'I have self' (which is the eternalist theory), because both
>>> are fetters, both arising out of the false idea 'I AM'. The correct
>>> position with regard to the question of Anatta is not to take hold of
>>> any opinions or views, but to see things objectively as they are
>>> without mental projections, to see that what we call 'I' or 'being',
>>> is only a combination of physical and mental aggregates, which are ...
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Author: Hollywood LeeHollywood Lee Date: Dec 18, 2007 17:21
Tang Huyen wrote:
> Thus the Buddha knows ahead of time that some people
> will try to sneak in something *outside of* the five
> aggregates, something *other than* the five aggregates,
> but to him the five aggregates encompass everything, and
> the self is a composition, a part of the fourth aggregate
> (and therefore also a part of the five aggregates).
> Actually the five aggregates are his scheme of dividing
> the whole range of experience, so that there is nothing
> outside of them or other than them. If you don't like that
> fact, you haven't to follow his Buddhism.
But that seems to be the point that many people here are making - that
there is some thing, essence, realm, etc. that is beyond the five
aggregates. And that the beyond thingie is reached and experienced upon
enlightenment/awakening.
It seems silly to speculate about such things, but what the heck do I know?
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Author: Dave KDave K Date: Dec 18, 2007 17:31
On Dec 18, 7:50 pm, Tang Huyen gmail.com[remove]>
wrote:
> Dave K wrote:
>> The Mahayana sutras are purposefully self contradictory in this way to
>> express the teachings as you have stated. They're basically huge
>> koans.
>
>> You don't find these kinds of things in the Pali canon. They are
>> pretty consistent. I haven't found many contradictions there, and the
>> ones I do find are usually attributed to the Buddha teaching people at
>> different levels or teaching householders vs. monks. (Better rebirth
>> vs. arahantship)
>
> There are lots of contradictions in the early canon.
> The Buddha is a Thespian who goes out of his way
> to emphasise something or another to drive a point
> home and does not bother about consistency in
> details, though he does keep consistency over all.
> He does not refrain from saying some things that
> flatly contradict the rest of his teaching. ...
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