Seth Hammond wrote:
>
> "Greg Procter"
ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:46771F15.5850B0AA@ihug.co.nz...>> Seth Hammond wrote:
>>>
>>> "Greg Procter"
ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
>>> news:4676E86B.86434BD1@ihug.co.nz...>>>> Seth Hammond wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Greg Procter"
ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4675CC4D.F586C18D@ihug.co.nz...>>>>>> America the Beautiful wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Greg Procter wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> America the Beautiful wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Greg Procter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>America the Beautiful wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Greg Procter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>America the Beautiful wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Greg Procter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>America the Beautiful wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Seth said his was 1838(?)cc. Sure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>No. But that's probably the biggest bike motor on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>road.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The problem with "big" in motor bikes is that they take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of effort
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to manhandle around corners - if you have a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>corners
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>He lives in Arizona. Corners aren't a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>People drive straight through?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>There is a lot of open road.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We have a lot of open road here to - but it's not the place
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bloated, overweight two wheeled motorcar!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>That "two wheeled motorcar" argument is stupid, but typical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Next
>>>>>>>>>>>>>you'll be telling us the Viper is a low riding truck.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>The V10 engine was designed for and is used in Dodge trucks.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>What if it was designed for cars but also converted for trucks?
>>>>>>>>>>>Would
>>>>>>>>>>>the trucks be big cars?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>They would be trucks with very lightly built engines.
>>>
>>> Er, the V-10 used in trucks is cast iron.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Well, this is a car with a very powerful engine.
>>>
>>> Er, the V-10 used in Vipers is alloy.
>>
>> Yeah yeah, I know that - same motor but they had to beef the casting up
>> when they changed it from cast iron to alloy so that the front of the
>> viper didn't drag on the ground with the weight of all that cast iron.
>> It's a truck motor with the block cast in alloy instead of iron.
>
> They changed nothing but iron to alloy, but thanks for playing with yer
> wild-assed guess.
You'd believe any silly story told to you, wouldn't you Seth!
If all they changed was the block material you'd have V10 120bhp Vipers
towing semi-trailers!
>
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure - a mate of mine put a RR Merlin in a Holden (GM thing) It
>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>> around 1000bhp
>>>
>>> and handle liked a pig.
>>>
>>> He'd be used to that having you for a mate innit.
>
> Can you oink?
I don't need to ask you that question - the mud on your nose is answer
enough.
>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What does the motor have to do with handling?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's weight the rider has to bodily shift to cause the motorcycle to
>>>>>> corner.
>>>>>> Imagine looking at a motorcycle from the front or back (doesn't
>>>>>> matter
>>>>>> which)
>>>>>> To bank the bike over, (which is required so that the centripital
>>>>>> force
>>>>>> doesn't toss you to the outside of the curve) you need to lean the
>>>>>> bike
>>>>>> so that the centre of gravity is inboard of the track. The weight
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> rider has to move to corner is the weight of the bike pluss his own
>>>>>> weight with a leverage of his own centre of gravity height x weight
>>>>>> over
>>>>>> the bike's centre of gravity x weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Silly, silly bullshit proving you know jack shit about sickles. If
>>>>> only
>>>>> you
>>>>> knew anything about countersteering you'd know the only moving a rider
>>>>> does
>>>>> to the bike is pushing the bar with the hand matching the direction
>>>>> you
>>>>> want
>>>>> to turn. Push left to turn the wheel to the right so the bike goes
>>>>> left.
>>>>> See how that works? (of course you don't)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don't be a fuckwit all your life, Seth.
>>>>
>>>>> Harley riders and other stupid dumbfuckers believe it's their body
>>>>> leaning
>>>>> that does the turning. It is to laugh. It's the leaning into the
>>>>> handlebar
>>>>> that does the deed.
>>>>
>>>> Don't be an utter fuckwit all your life Seth.
>>>
>>> Here we fucken go again - (sigh) :
>>>
>>> Countersteering
>>> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
>>> Jump to: navigation, search
>>> For the similar technique used in automobiles, see opposite lock.
>
> No similarity whatsoever. Car frames & tires don't lean innit. Yer
> stupidity is staggering....
Cars don't lean??? Where do you get this crap?
Tyres don't lean??? ditto.
The comment was in regard to opposite lock steering techniques, a
subject _you_ brought into the discussion.
>
>>
>> Ohh for fucks sake - any time you get a Harley or Goldwing into an
>> oversteering/opposite lock situation you're in deep shit - been there,
>> done that.
>
> Still no grasp of countersteering whatsofuckenever.
Seth old fuckwit, the only group of people who deliberately use
motorcycle countersteering techniques are lard-arse yanks sitting in
mobile armchairs (plus wannabe yank lardarses), the rest of the world's
motorcycle riders use the alternative technique described fleetingly in
your cite.
>
>>
>>> Countersteering is the name given to the counter-intuitive technique used
>>> by
>>> cyclists and motorcyclists to turn corners. It is the only way a rider
>>> can
>>> cause a single-track vehicle to turn.
>>
>> Your steering geometry is way to hell away from optimum if you're aware
>> of countersteering!!!
>
> I'm a rider - yer a guesser, and a dead-wrong one at that....
I'll accept that I'm wrong as far as lardarse yanks riding 2 wheel
mobile armchairs is concerned - I'm honestly horrified that you'd stoop
to using such incompetent cornering techniques!
>
>>
>>>
>>> Contents
>>> [hide]
>>> a.. 1 How it works
>>> a.. 1.1 Need to lean to turn
>>> b.. 1.2 Lean by countersteering
>>> c.. 1.3 Once lean is achieved
>>> d.. 1.4 Adjusting or exiting a turn
>>> e.. 1.5 At low speeds
>>> f.. 1.6 Unconscious behavior
>>> b.. 2 Motorcycles
>>> c.. 3 See also
>>> d.. 4 References
>>> e.. 5 External links
>>>
>>> It is important to distinguish between countersteering as a physical
>>> phenomenon and countersteering as a rider technique for initiating a turn
>>> (the usual interpretation of the term). The physical phenomenon always
>>> occurs, because there is no other way to cause the bike and rider to lean
>>> short of some outside influence such as an opportune side wind, although
>>> at
>>> low speeds it can be lost or hidden in the minute corrections made to
>>> maintain balance. On the other hand, the technique of applying pressure
>>> to
>>> the handlebars to initiate a turn is not always necessary, since, on a
>>> sufficiently light bike (especially a bicycle), turning can also be
>>> initiated by shifting body weight.
>>
>> There's the rub - you ride such a pig of an overweight motorcycle that
>> you can't turn the damn thing without a sidewind or a jack!
>
> Do you have a compendium of stupid things to say every time yer in over yer
> head?
>
>>
>> [1] Documented physical experimentation
>>> shows that on heavy bikes (many motorcycles) shifting body weight is
>>> ineffective at initiating turns.[2]
>
> If only you had read that far before your latest stupid comment again
> proving you know jack shit about sickles....
>
>>
>> The shifting of weight is to counter the centripetal force generated in
>> cornering - your pig of a two-wheeled car doesn't corner fast enough to
>> generate centripetal force.
>
> No, stupid fucker, the shifting of weight is to get the front wheel to ride
> on its sidewall shoulder and create the same as a banked turn with itself.
> Turn slightly right to get on the left shoulder in order to make a left
> turn. You'll never see how that works. It requires a modicum of
> intelligence. Let's you out innit.
>
>>
>>>
>>> [edit] How it works
>>> A single-track vehicle such as a bicycle or a motorcycle is an inverted
>>> pendulum -- it will fall over unless balanced.
>>
>> Read that bit and try to understand it!
>>
>>> When a book is balanced on
>>> end, the bottom must be moved to the right to make the book fall to the
>>> left.
>>
>> Now you're going to claim you ride a Honda Goldwing BOOK????
>
> The example given was above yer understanding, that's clear.
>
> I blame inherent stupidity.
That gives you an out!
>
>>>
>>> [edit] Need to lean to turn
>>> A bike can negotiate a curve only when the combined center of mass of
>>> bike
>>> and rider lean toward the inside of the turn,
>>
>> Read that and understand!
>
> Er, this is my lesson I'm giving *you*. If only you had something besides
> shit for brains....
You're plain stupid Seth.
>
>>
>>> at an angle appropriate for
>>> the velocity and the radius of the turn. Higher speeds and tighter turns
>>> require greater lean angles.
>>
>> Read that and understand!
>
> I could have written it. I'm a rider. Yer a pretender.
Shut up Seth, you're a poser and an idiot.
>
>>
>>> If the mass is not first leaned into the turn,
>>> the momentum of the rider and bike will cause them to continue in a
>>> straight
>>> line as the tires track out from under them along the curve. The
>>> transition
>>> of riding in a straight line to negotiating a turn is a process of
>>> leaning
>>> the bike into the turn, and the only way to cause that lean (of the
>>> combined
>>> center of mass of bike and rider) is to move the support points in the
>>> opposite direction first.[3]
>>
>> Bullshit!
>
> Hahahahahahahaha!
>
> Ignorance results when knowledge is unknown. Stupidity results when
> knowledge is rejected.
>
>>
>>> The rider can shift his weight of course, but
>>> any force used to move one way laterally pushes the bike laterally the
>>> opposite direction with equal force. That makes the bike lean (and can
>>> effect the steering), but it doesn't lean the combined center of mass of
>>> bike and rider.
>
> Until countersteering is done.
Don't be fucking stupid - throw your weight into the inside of the curve
- the cycle pivots vertically around the CofG - the tyres move outward
and the combined weight of the rider and bike move inward of the
tyre/road contact point. Turn into the curve - the ensemble follows the
curve. Where did the "countersteering" come into the equation?
>
>>
>> Yeah yeah - moving the CG in relation to the points of contact with the
>> road is effectively the same thing.
>>
>>>
>>> [edit] Lean by countersteering
>>> When riding a bicycle or a motorcycle, countersteering is a method of
>>> initiating a turn by a small, momentary turn of the front wheel, usually
>>> via
>>> the handlebars, in the opposite (counter) direction. Like the book
>>> example
>>> above, this moves the pivot point (the wheels' contact patches) out from
>>> under the center of mass to establish the lean angle for a turn. While
>>> necessary at all speeds, the need to countersteer becomes more noticeable
>>> as
>>> speed increases.
>>>
>>> Hence, if a rider wants to turn to the right, he first throws the bike
>>> off
>>> balance by momentarily pointing the front wheel slightly to the left. The
>>> center of mass of the bike plus rider will continue in a straight line,
>>> but
>>> the contact patches of the tires move to the left with respect to this
>>> straight line.
>>
>> Hoo humm - correct but laboured.
>
> Are you finally at long long last beginning to understand countersteering?
Well yes, I really wasn't aware of how bad yank motorcycle handling
techniques were - no wonder yank iron is so slow on windy roads!
>
>>
>>>
>>> [edit] Once lean is achieved
>>> As the desired angle is approached, the rider must then steer into the
>>> turn
>>> to maintain that angle or the bike continue to lean with gravity
>>> increasing
>>> the rate until the side contacts the ground. As roll momentum and gravity
>>> then tip the bike over to the side, the front wheel must be steered into
>>> the
>>> curve, and the curve is negotiated with the proper inward lean. This
>>> process
>>> usually requires little physical effort, because the geometry of the
>>> steering system of most bikes is designed in such a way that the front
>>> wheel
>>> has a strong tendency to steer in the direction of a lean.
>>
>> That's where we started.
>>
>>
>
> Someday you should have someone give you your first ride on a sickle.
Someday you should try riding a motorcycle!
>
>>>
>>> [edit] Adjusting or exiting a turn
>>> Once in a turn, countersteering is again required to make changes to its
>>> shape. The only way to decrease the radius at the same speed is to
>>> increase
>>> the lean angle, and the only way to increase the lean angle, is again to
>>> momentarily steer opposite to the direction of the curve. To the
>>> untrained,
>>> this can be extremely counter-intuitive.
>>
>> Crap.
>
> Crap only to neophyte biker wannabe's. Riders know truth when they see it.
I'm shocked that yanks would even consider such riding techniques!
No wonder you're so slow on the road!
>
>>
>>>
>>> To exit a turn, countersteer by momentarily steering further in the
>>> direction of the turn. This tilts the bike back upright.
>>
>> You have very lazy and inept motorcycle riders!
>
> America has more championship riders than any other country in the world,
> although Asstrailer has produced a few.
You have very lazy and inept motorcycle riders!
>
>>
>>>
>>> [edit] At low speeds
>>> At low speeds countersteering is equally necessary, but the
>>> countersteering
>>> is then so subtle that it drowns in the continuous corrections that are
>>> made
>>> in balancing the bike, often falling below a just noticeable difference
>>> or
>>> threshold of perception of the rider.
>>>
>>> [edit] Unconscious behavior
>>> Countersteering is indispensable for bike steering. Most people are not
>>> consciously aware that they employ countersteering when riding their bike
>>> any more than they are aware of the physics of walking. Their body has
>>> learned to include the well timed countersteering jolt. They may have
>>> learned to do so while learning to ride a bicycle in childhood. Often
>>> people
>>> simply assume that the steering of a bike is just like the steering of a
>>> car. Their unconscious balance skills know better.
>>>
>>> As is well-known in bicycle racing, the countersteering phenomenon
>>> becomes
>>> evident when there is an obstacle preventing the wheel from
>>> countersteering,
>>> e.g., when closely overlapping wheels or riding very close to a curb. In
>>> these situations, the only way to initiate a turn away from the obstacle
>>> is
>>> to come into contact with it, that is, turn towards the wheel or curb in
>>> order to avoid crashing into it.[3] Lack of understanding of this
>>> principle
>>> leads to accidents in novice bicycle races.
>>>
>>> [edit] Motorcycles
>>> Even more so than on a bicycle, mastering the technique of
>>> countersteering
>>> is essential for safe motorcycle riding, and as a result is a large part
>>> of
>>> the safe riding courses run by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. At the
>>> higher speeds that motorcycles commonly travel at, it becomes
>>> increasingly
>>> impractical to steer by taking advantage of the minute and random
>>> corrections needed to maintain balance.
>>>
>>> Much of the art of motorcycle cornering is learning how to effectively
>>> "push" the grips into corners and how to maintain proper lean angles
>>> through
>>> the turn. When the need for a quick swerve to one side suddenly arises in
>>> an
>>> emergency, it is essential to know, through prior practice, that the
>>> handlebars must be deliberately pressed away on that side instead of
>>> being
>>> pulled. Many accidents result when otherwise experienced riders who have
>>> never carefully developed this skill encounter an unexpected obstacle.
>>>
>>> [edit] See also
>>> a.. Bicycle and motorcycle dynamics
>>>
>>> [edit] References
>>> 1.. ^ Fajans, Joel (July 2000). "Steering in bicycles and motorcycles"
>>> (PDF). American Journal of Physics 68 (7): 654-659. Retrieved on
>>> 2006-08-04.
>>> 2.. ^ Gromer, Cliff. "STEER GEAR So how do you actually turn a
>>> motorcycle?", Popular Mechanics, February 1, 2001. Retrieved on
>>> 2006-08-07.
>>> 3.. ^ a b Wilson, David Gordon; Jim Papadopoulos (2004). Bicycling
>>> Science, Third Edition, The MIT Press, 270-272. ISBN 0-262-73154-1.
>>>
>>> [edit] External links
>>> a.. Tony Foale's Article on Balance and Steering
>>> b.. "Countersteering: Motorcycle Riders Who Zig"
>>> c.. "Steering" (By Mike Howell)
>>> d.. "No B.S. Machine" physical experimentation
>>> e.. "Motorcycle Tire Wear" Inserted by and with permission of the
>>> author
>>> f.. "Counter-Intuitive" (see Rocket Bike) relevant physical
>>> experimentation proving that turning bars to left cause bike to turn to
>>> the
>>> right
>>> Retrieved from "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering"
>>> Categories: Cycling | Motorcycling | Mopeds
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why are you so fuckin' stupid even after all I've tried to teach you?
>>
>> The fact that you're trying to teach crap ...
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Goldwing has a low seat height
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless preload is employed for more road clearance.
>>>>
>>>> It still has a low seat height.
>>>
>>> As a result of low COG from a boxer engine.
>>
>> The boxer engine puts the CG high.
>
> What an incredibly stupid thing to say. The crankshaft is absolutely
> parallel to the driveshaft, putting the engine mass center at axle height.
> My dog Ed knows that.
Ok, I went on to ask how the gearbox is arranged.
>
>>
>> The seat is low because it is put there to match the style wanted by
>> yank idiots.
>>
>>> Yet corners surprisingly well -
>>
>> LOL - I was not joking about Harleys and Goldwings holding me up in my
>> VW camper.
>
> Nearly everything you say is a joke. *You're* a joke....
Goldwings hold me up in my VW camper - get used to the concept.
>
>>
>>> faster than I do comfortably. The centerstand disappears. I don't know
>>> where it goes. I know it sure's the fuck doesn't ground out. I cornered
>>> hard to the left in a switchback, and instead of grinding my cenerstand,
>>> I
>>> ground the tip of my toe when my foot was under the shifter. That's
>>> sportsbike clearance, me lad....
>>
>> That's an idiot taking an inept machine to it's apparent limit.
>
> Wrong again as usual. Had my toe not been there I would have grounded the
> shifter - not a good thing to be thrown out of gear....
Now you're claiming inept design - perhaps yanks did design it!
What fool would put a part like the gear change pedal where it's going
to hit the ground - you'll fuck the gear change mechanisim!
The footrest should protect it, and your foot!!!
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> with feet well forward
>>>>>
>>>>> A stupid lie. My Wing has after-market highway pegs so I can look
>>>>> like
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> slding into third base if I had some weird inclination to do so.
>>>>> Otherwise,
>>>>> my pegs are perfectly situated for thousand mile days in the saddle.
>>>>
>>>> Your ignorance is all-encompassing.
>>>
>>> I'm a discriminating Gold Wing rider.
>>
>> Mutually exclusive.
>>
>>> You have no sickle at all.
>>
>> I do.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> (useless
>>>>>> position for manhandling weights) and an exceptionaly heavy weight
>>>>>
>>>>> 822 lbs, not your lying 1450 lbs proving you know jack shit about
>>>>> sickles.
>>>>
>>>> 822lb - try picking that up off the road!
>>>
>>> I have. Go to a Honda store and ask the saleman to show you how a Gold
>>> Wing
>>> falls over. He'll then show you how to pick it up. Then it's your turn.
>>> Whoops, you can pick up jack shit innit.
>>
>> Idiot.
>
> That's no excuse.
>
> FYI, Gold Wings stop falling at something near 35 degrees. That's when
> engine guards touch and the bike is protected.
LOL - that's going to be a mighty strong engine guard structure to
protect the engine from the force of 820lb+ at 30mph!
It would have to weigh an additional 820lb to be strong enough. (410lb
per side!)
>
> It's amazing how little you know about Gold Wings and sickling in general.
I know as much as I want to about Goldwings - they don't corner as well
as VW campers!
>
>>
>>>
>>> I see why you know jack shit about sickles.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> a high centre of gravity neccessitated by the excessive width of the
>>>>>> flat-six motor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only dumbfucker grog could make such an absurd statement. Engine
>>>>> width
>>>>> causes high COG? LOL....
>>>>
>>>> Aww Seth, don't be so fucking stupid!
>>>> The width of the bike limits the bank angle - ie the angle you can lean
>>>> your bike to and therefore the compensation you can apply to negate the
>>>> centripital force generated by cornering speed. A wide motor has to be
>>>> set higher to gain angle and therefore increases the CG and the force
>>>> the rider must apply to bank the cycle - hence stupid HGWs are slower
>>>> than VW campers in windy roads.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And AGAIN you show you know jack shit about sickles. I've never seen
>>> such
>>> dumbfuckerism.
>>
>> Aww give up Seth, go ride under a truck.
>> (you'll never be a ble to swerve that heap of junk to miss)
>>
>>>
>>> The Gold Wing engine is similar in design to the Porshe 6-cyl opposed.
>>
>> I know exactly what the engine is - the name is "Porsche".
>>
>>> The
>>> crankshaft is in line with the driveshaft - thus, the center of mass is
>>> at
>>> axle level.
>>
>> You're sure about that? Direct drive or double step indirect gearbox?
>> Fucking Kryst but you are stupid.....
>>
>>> Use whatever diameter rims & tires you like. Jesus Aitch
>>> Fucking Kryst but you are stupid.....
>>
>> What's the bank angle?
>> Fucking Kryst but you are stupid.....
So you don't know any basic info about your 2 wheel car.
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My engine width is similar to that of BMW boxers.
>>>>
>>>> Certainly - two cylinder BMWs designed to haul sidecars - you've got
>>>> SIX
>>>> cylinders with water jackets etc which weigh four times the weight of
>>>> the aircoolded twin.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, there is very little leverage for the rider and a
>>>>>> lot
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> weight - the bike might go around one corner, but an S-curve is
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be really hard work and a windy road will slow him down to less than
>>>>>> VW
>>>>>> camper speeds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cages of any kind can corner faster than sickles.
>>>>
>>>> Don't be fucking stupid!
>>>>
>>>>> They have double the
>>>>> number of road contact patches. (look it up)
>>>>
>>>> They also have a small fraction of the weight and the ability to
>>>> compensate for centripital force.
>>>>
>>>>> However, VW Kombis get in the
>>>>> way of perambulators on even the shortest straightaway.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, but we have a 100km/hr speed limit - you can't use the power of
>>>> your bloated 2 wheel car on the roads anyway.
