McBain wrote:
> Evolution wrote:
>
>>Hang on. Bin Laden was not involved in the first WTC attack, and I
>>believe those responsible were brought to justice.
>>
>>And why in 1998 and not 1993? Because one isolated incident was treated
>>as it should have been, a crime.
>
>
> There was an understanding at the time that the attack was a terrorist
> attack, which is a little different from a crime.
Why? "terrorism" is a tactic. It is a kind of a crime. At the time,
there was no knowledge of an organization behind the attack. Why would
Clinton take any more action against that attack than was taken against
the Oklahoma City bombing?
>
>
>>No one even heard the word "al qaeda"
>>or knew bin Laden was head of an organization until 1996. It is absurd
>>to think that anyone could have foreseen that those attacks would have
>>led to 9/11 at that time.
>>
>>And, Clinton got hell from the republicans for the actions he DID take,
>>or do you choose not to remember? It was the republicans at the time
>>who didn't take the terrorist threat seriously, and blasted Clinton for
>>reacting. NOW they say he should have done more? Do you not see how
>>idiotic that is?
>
>
> I never said I agreed with how the Republicans handled it. I haven't
> come down on the Republicans side on anything. I'm just not going to
> sit here and treat Clinton as some kind of demigod in comparison to the
> Republican party because he is not. It's not about Democrats and
> Republicans. It's about what individuals did and didn't do.
Yes, and Clinton DID go after bin Laden because he DID see the
developing organization as a threat. He DID take immediate action when
faced with chatter about the millenium attack. He did it quietly and
successfully prevented it, without sounding colored alarms and scaring
people. Without hindsight, he did everything which was warranted at the
time, and in the last year of his presidency, recognized the threat from
al qaeda and developed a plan to fight it. He handed it over to bush,
who completely ignored it. Bush did nothing with it. Bush did nothing
when faced with the chatter about 9/11. How can you even compare the two?
>
> The fact is, Clinton couldn't have eaten a bowl of soup for eight years
> without the Republicans making some kind of huge issue out of it. That
> doesn't make him a lame duck President for an entire term. There
> wasn't anything he did that wasn't openly critisized to the fullest
> extent.
>
>
>> But
>>
>>>when the opportunity presents itself in 1999, he doesn't want to give
>>>the kidnapping orders for fear of accidental death?
>>
>>Had he done so, he would have been literally crucified by the same
>>people who are now saying he should have done more.
>
>
> Just like he was crucified for everything else. Is the solution to
> stop doing anything and let a loudmouth Republican party dictate your
> policy?
The president is restrained by what the American people want... or he
*should* be. Public opinion was being swayed by the republicans.
Public opinion was not for going after bin Laden at the time. Maybe he
should have done it anyway. But the point is, it is very hypocritical
for *anyone*, including you, to criticize Clinton for not doing more to
get bin Laden when at the time, those same people, including you, I
suspect, were not calling for more to be done.
>>THEIR political rhetoric is what you've swallowed, hook, bait and lie.
>
>
> I haven't swallowed anything. I do not base my judgements on what the
> Republican or Democratic party tells me to believe. I base them on the
> actions of the people I am judging.
Did you actually call for Clinton to go after bin Laden militarily back
in 1998? I highly doubt it. How can you call for that now?
And while I like Clinton in
> comparison to Bush, I don't think he had a very effective Presidency in
> many facets. I don't think he had nearly the negative effect on this
> country that Bush has had, but I don't think he had nearly the positive
> effect that some people give him credit for.
>
> I sit here and try to think about what he did in his presidency to
> better this country and I can't think of much. He stayed the course,
> to some degree. It's better than Bush, but what did he accomplish?
For one thing, 8 years of peace and prosperity. A good economy.
6 million new jobs created in the first 2 years.
In 1994, the economy had the lowest combination of unemployment and
inflation in 25 years.
As part of the 1993 Economic Plan, President Clinton cut taxes on 15
million low-income families and made tax cuts available to 90 percent of
small businesses, while raising taxes on just 1.2 percent of the
wealthiest taxpayers.
He balanced the budget after 12 years of raygunomics.
He signed into law the Brady Bill, which imposes a five-day waiting
period on handgun purchases so that background checks can be done to
help keep handguns away from criminals.
He put 100,000 new police officers on the street, put the 3 strikes law
in effect and banned 19 types of assault weapons. Violent crime went
down for the first time.
Clinton signed the Family and Medical Leave Act. The law, which covers
over 42 million Americans, offers workers up to 12 weeks of unpaid,
job-guaranteed leave for child birth, adoption, or personal or family
illness.
Clinton expanded the Earned Income Tax Credit to cut the taxes of 15
million working families with incomes of $27,000 or less.
Clinton ordered the U.S. Justice Department to conduct the first-ever
crackdown on deadbeat parents who refuse to accept financial
responsibility for their own children.
Signed an Executive Order cracking down on federal employees who owe
child support.
Under the President's Direct Student Loan program, students can borrow
money directly from the government at a lower interest rate and with
many flexible repayment options, including the option to repay with a
percentage of their after-graduation salary. Taxpayers will save at
least $4.3 billion over five years.
In 1994, over 20,000 AmeriCorps members tutored students, immunized
children, reclaimed urban parks, and patrolled neighborhoods. In return,
they earned $4,725 per year of service towards college tuition or job
training.
President Clinton signed into law Goals 2000, a national standard of
excellence for our public schools. Already, 41 states and territories
have received federal grants to raise academic standards and improve
schools.
President Clinton's Safe and Drug Free Schools and Community Act and the
Safe Schools Act provide funding to schools to fight violence and drug
abuse. Schools can use up to 25 percent of their funds to purchase metal
detectors, develop safe zones, and hire school security personnel.
The President's School-to-Work program provides venture capital to spark
a nationwide system for moving America's young people from high school
to a job with a future. In 1994, all states received planning funds for
their school-to-work program.
Charter School legislation signed by President Clinton encourages states
and localities to set up public school choice.
Under President Clinton, the EPA launched its "Common Sense Initiative"
to make health protection cheaper and smarter by focusing on results
rather than one-size-fits-all regulations.
The President's Northwest Forest Plan is putting communities in the
Northwest back to work, while conserving ancient forests.
After decades of conflict, the Clinton Administration negotiated a
consensus plan to protect California's most valuable natural resource --
its water. The San Francisco and Delta estuary supplies dr inking water
to two-thirds of the state's people, provides irrigation for 45 percent
of the nation's fruits and vegetables, and sustains 300 aquatic species.
President Clinton hosted the signing of the Israeli-Palestinian
Declaration of Principles in September, 1993, and the signing of the
Israeli-Jordan Washington Principles in July, 1994 -- historic
agreements between the leaders of Israel and her Arab neighbors to
settle differences by peaceful means.
To enhance European security and stability, the Clinton Administration
proposed the Partnership for Peace program, offering former Soviet
republics and Central/East European states closer ties with NATO.
Already, 22 nations have signed on, since NATO's adoption of the program
in January, 1994.
As of May, 1994, nuclear missiles in Russia and the United States are no
longer targeted against any country. And, as a result of other Clinton
Administration efforts, the Ukraine is ahead of schedule in reaching the
goal of transferring 1,500 nuclear warheads to Russia for dismantlement.
President Clinton peacefully restored democracy to Haiti, curbing the
violence that threatened tens of thousands of Haitians, securing our
borders, and upholding our commitments and the commitments made to us in
the process.
Signed a comprehensive Child Immunization Plan.
Revoked the Reagan/Bush restrictions on abortion counseling ("the gag
rule"), abortions in military hospitals, "Mexico City" policy and RU-486
imports.
Increased Ryan White CARE Act funding for outpatient AIDS care over 100%%
in first 3 budgets.
Put the Women, Infants and Children Program (WIC) on a full-funding path.
Increased funding 65%% for breast cancer research.
As part of the balanced budget plan, introduced health care reform
initiative which strengthens Medicare and expands coverage.
Proposed a $1.3 billion increase in veterans' benefits -- of which $1
billion will be directed to the VA health system to provide treatment
for 43,000 more veterans.
Issued a new executive order to require polluters to disclose
information to the public and expanded the public's right-to-know about
toxic releases.
Launched "reinventing environmental regulation" to cut red tape and
better protect public health.
Issued a new standard to cut pollution from chemical plants 90%% by 1997.
Signed executive orders to increase recycling and cut pollution in
federal buildings.
Signed the California Desert Protection Act, October 31, 1994.
Issued a new standard to cut pollution from incinerators 95%%.
Introduced comprehensive Safe Drinking Water and Superfund reforms.
Developed a plan to restore Florida's Everglades.
Signed the National Voter Registration Act (Motor-Voter), May 20, 1993.
Eliminated the tax deduction for lobbying expenses.
Imposed strictest Administration ethics guidelines in history.
Barred top officials from becoming foreign lobbyists after leaving
government.
Signed the Lobbying Disclosure Act of 1995 -- the first overhaul of
lobbying rules in 50 years.
Fought for passage of and signed into law the Congressional
Accountability Act, January 22, 1995.
Opened 15 different market sectors in Japan ranging from
telecommunications procurement to rice.
Reached historic agreement with Japan on opening its automotive market
to billions of dollars worth of American cars and parts.
Reached agreement with China to provide intellectual property rights
protection for billions of dollars worth of U.S. exports.
Helped Israel and Jordan achieve an historic peace treaty and Israel and
the Palestinians fulfill their historic accord.
Contributed to an historic cease-fire in Northern Ireland.
Agreed to framework with North Korea that freezes and leads to the
eventual elimination of North Korea s dangerous nuclear program. (By the
way, bush reneged on this agreement, leading to the renewal of this program)
******************************************************************
Oh, darn... I just realized that these accomplishments were all in
Clinton's FIRST term, as this website is for the re-election of
Clinton... Well, do you want me to find his accomplishments in his
second term?
One I can think of... He signed the Kyoto agreement, which bush also
reneged on.
Can you come up with a list of dubya's accomplishments? This ought to
be good...
>
>
>
>
>>Read the neocon website. In 1998, they said that it was important to
>>take over Iraq, regardless of whether Saddam was in power or not (he's
>>just the demon that provided one of the excuses and at the time was a
>>friendly). They also said that it would take a cataclysmic event to
>>justify such an action. 9/11 provided them with the cataclysmic event,
>>and the very same day, they started to try and pin it on Saddam so they
>>could invade Iraq. I make fun of dubya all the time, but he is not
>>stupid. Why do you think he went on vacation after reading "Bin Laden
>>Determined To Attack In The US"? They wanted it to happen. Why do you
>>think he sat there for 7 minutes after being told "America is under
>>attack" without asking who/what/when/how/why? Is my wife and daughter
>>okay? Are these children in danger because my whereabouts are public
>>knowledge? He KNEW. That's the only explanation for that reaction.
>>
>>The truth will come out someday.
>
>
> I understand what the neocons put out there and what they thought it
> would take to get the US back into Iraq. They didn't spin it towards
> Saddam the next day, they did it on September 11th, 2002, when they
> rolled out the foreign policy that proclaimed we had the right to
> pre-emptive strike against anyone that threatened our "interests,"
> about as broad a statement of hegamony as one could make.
There is more than one witness claiming that rummy said on the day or
day after that we should use this to attack Iraq. Bush himself told
Dick Clarke to "find Iraq's involvement" in the days following 9/11,
even after Clarke said he wasn't involved.
>
> I don't know if Bush ignored terrorist info in hopes that a major
> attack would happen. It is certainly a serious accusation that we have
> no definitive proof of. The only people who know that are Bush,
> Rumsfeld, and Cheney.
We do know that they ignored terrorist attack info. What we don't know
is why? But I can't think of any reason other than stupidity or wanting
it to happen, can you?
>
>
>
>
>>>Would 9/11 have happened if Clinton got bin Laden?
>>
>>Would it have happened if bush hadn't gone on vacation and ignored the
>>REAL threat?
>>
>>Would it have happened if his mother hadn't given birth to him? Come on...
>
>
> You don't think it's a legitimate question to wonder what would have
> happened on 9/11 if Clinton gave the orders to kidnap bin Laden,
> possible death be damned? I think that's a fair question.
First of all, there is no proof that bin Laden was even involved. He
denied it. I have seen no proof other than that tape which was fake
(the man who was supposedly bin Laden was writing with his right hand
and bin Laden is left-handed). It is said that another al qaeda leader
planned 9/11, so capturing bin Laden would have made the same amount of
difference as capturing the number one guy in Iraq made... violence got
worse after that. There is no way it would have prevented 9/11.
You ignore that bush's policies have made al qaeda stronger and more of
a threat, and that under bush's watch and because of his botched
invasion of Iraq, 40,000 plus innocent people more have been killed...
far worse than 9/11.
>
>>Where is the proof that bin Laden even had anything to do with it?
>>Please... it would have happened without one man.
>
>
> I believe bin Laden publicly claimed responsibility.
No, he denied it. The government came up with a tape which was a fake,
wherein he supposedly claimed responsibility. Bin Laden again publicly
said he was glad it happened, but he didn't do it.
>
> I haven't doubted that it probably would have happened. But what if
> bin Laden was out of the picture, someone else was on top, and had a
> different view/plan? These are things we can't assume to know.
And yet you seem to think Clinton should have known this, even though
with the benefit of hindsight we don't know?
Laurie
>