> "Libertarius" wrote in message
>>>"Libertarius" wrote in message
>>>>===>There is nothing about any "Devil" or "Satan" in Genesis.
>>>>It is the fantasy of the author/editor of "Revelation".
>>>No, it's not a fantasy of the author of Revelation,
>>>and he was an author, not an "editor." It says who
>>>wrote it in the book. And in the first verse of the
>>>book, it shows that it is not the revelation of
>>>John, but the revelation of JESUS CHRIST:
>>>Revelation: Chapter 1, verse 1, sentence 1.
>>>The devil is identified in Rev. 20:2 as being
>>>1. the Dragon
>>>2. the Serpent
>>>3. the Devil
>>>>>The 'serpent' of Genesis and the 'dragon' of Revelation are both
>>>>>symbolisms of the Devil.
>>>The devil is not spoken of in symbolism in Genesis,
>>>and he is not spoken of as a symbol in the verses
>>>quoted to you in the Revelation, either. He is all
>>>4 of the things quoted above. He's also not just
>>>an angel, he's a special angel, a cherub.
>>>>===>That is totally false!
>>>>There is at least a dozen references to the "snake" or "serpent"
>>>>in the TANAKH ("OT"), but NEVER, EVER is it identified with any evil
>>>>spirit or "devil" or "Satan".
>>>He is mentioned FIFTEEN times in the Old Testament,
>>>Libertarius, by the term "Satan." He is also in there
>>>other times like the one in which he is called Lucifer,
>>>and in some other places as well. See scriptures at the
>>>end of the post.
>>===>I thought you would say that.
> Did you now!!! : )
>>You obviously don't know the "Adversary" ("Satan") of the OT
>>is NOT an adversary of his boss, YHWH. Instead, he acts on
>>YHWH's behalf as his ANGEL!
>>So, of course he could not have been involved in the incident
> No, actually, he wants to be God.
===>A Christian invention,
contradicted by EVERYTHING about the "Adversary" ("Satan")
in the OT.
So he is very much
> involved with man. Have you ever heard about the
> Lord wanting to resolve the "angelic conflict?"
===>A Christian invention.
>>So much for THAT silly argument!
>>>>As for the Eden fable:
>>>>The snake's declaration is attributed to its SHREWDNESS, not to any
>>>>external influence. Please read Gen. 3:12-14. Adam blames Eve, Eve
>>>>the serpent, but the serpent blames no one else, because he was
>>>>his own, knowing what he said was true!
>>>>He knew the humans could not die from eating that fruit, but they could
>>>>become all-knowing ("knoweres of good and evil", i.e. of everything)
>>>Satan did lie, but not to God. He lied to Eve.
>>===>He did not lie to anyone.
>>He was never involved in the Eden story.
>>It is YHWH who lied, threatening that they would
>>die the day they ate from his fruits.
>>"in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".
>>That did not happen!
> Yes he did lie.
===>You guys keep saying that. But the story say he LIVED
for several hundred yrears!
He told Eve how smart she would
The story says the SNAKE (NOT SATAN) told her they would
be KNOWERS LIKE THE ELOHIM, which prediction is confirmed
by YHWH ELOMIM himself later in the story.
> and that God didn't want her to eat of the Tree of
> Knowledge because if she did, she would be as wise
> as the Lord.
The snake said they would be knowers of good and evil
LIKLE THE ELOHIM, not "as the Lord"!
"ye shall be as gods (ELOHIM), knowing good and evil."
Perhaps if you stopped twisting everything in the text you
could begin to grasp the truth of the falsehoods of
No one is ever going to be as wise as
> the Lord!
===>You are twisting the story just to add your silly comment.
YHWH ELOHIM CCONFIRMS that they had "become like one of US"!
She had a blind spot, and that was her
> desire to pleases Adam and be something really great
> for him. But she already was very special to Adam.
===>Your editing. It has nothing to do with the story.
>>>He told her that God didn't want her to eat of
>>>the forbidden fruit because he didn't want them
>>>to be smart as he was smart.
>>"God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be
>>opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
> No, that's not why God told them not to eat of
> that tree. He warned them to not eat of it, because
> they would die if they did.
===>Why did he lie to them?
They did not die "the day the ate", and he
should have known that as well as the snake did.
So, his reason was to keep them from acquiring the ability to
"know good and evil".
God never said that
> they should not eat of the fruit so that they
> would not be as smart as he is.
===>Of course not.
It was the SNAKE (NOT SATAN) who told them
> lie. They didn't end up being as smart as God
===>You try to contradict YHWH ELOHIM by changing
the word "knowers of good and evil" to "smart".
>>And you are right
>>>that Satan charged no one with what he had
>>===>I never said that. YOU did.
>>There was no "Satan" involved!
> Would you stop? Don't start telling me there
> is no Satan after you've been talking about
> him yourself for a while here! And there is a
===>I never said such an idiotic thing.
There is no Satan" in the entire Eden story!
>>>Eve told the truth. She said the serpent
>>>had beguiled her, which he did do. And Adam
>>>sort of blamed Eve, but then, notice he really
>>>turned it on God. Because he said, "The woman
>>>WHICH THOU GAVEST ME, gave it to me and
>>>I did eat." They all three sinned.
>>Because they did what they were told not to because they would
>>die? They took a chance and behold, they did not die.
>>Instead, they became "like one of us", according to YHWH ELOHIM.
> Yep...Sin. And no, Adam and Eve died.
===>Another piece of Christian lie!
They were mortal to begin with.
YHWH ELOHIM confirms they needed to eat the other fruit
to "live for ever".
Mortal means "to die."
===>No. "Mortal" means "capable of dying", and they were
capable of dying all along, just like all other creatures
of the creation fable.
They died immediately
> in their spirits,
===>More Christian lies, derived from PAGANISM!
The story says they consisted of dirt and air.
What you call "spirt" is just the figure sculpted from mud.
After he blew air into their noses, the "became living soul".
Before, they qwere NON-LIVING "souls".
and had it not been for the promise of
> the Seed/Redeemer,
===>There is no such "promise".
Christians LIE when they interpret the CURSE on the SNAKE
as some sort of "promise".
they would have died progressively
===>Thet threat was NOT that they would die "progressively".
He said they would die THE DAY THEY ATE that fruit!
Which was a LIE!
> in their shouls, and then ultimately in their bodies.
===>What "SOULS"? (I assume that is what you meant).
Their BODY was the "SOUL".
>>>>And behold: the humans did not die, but became knowers as even that
>>nasty YHWH ELOHIM admits, before deciding to keep the humans from becoming
>>>>immortal like the ELOHIM by eating of that other fruit. So,
>>>>he chases them out of his garden.
>>>Adam and Eve died immediately in their spirits,
>>===>That is BOVINE MANURE!
>>"Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground"
>>"and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life."
>>I.E. BLEW AIR INTO HIS NOSE!
>>Som which of these died "in the day they ate"?
>>The mud, or the air?
>>They lived for hundreds of years according to the story,
>>and begat a whole bunch of earthlings.
> Uh---huh! You talk to me about them, and
> then you shut down and pretend they don't
> exist, right in the middle of what you have
> been saying.
===>I am talking about THE STORY,
which you are twisting and spinning and re-editing to suit
the LIES you have been brainwashed into.
>>>They would have died progressively in their
>>>souls, were it not for the promise of the Seed/Redeemer,
>>===>That is even more B.S.
>>NOTHING about any "SEED/REDEEMER".
>>You are twisting the curse on the snake into something it
> No, I'm not. Go read the Bible.
===>I read IT.
You read what the Church want's you to read, which is
>>>and then they died ultimately in their bodies.
>>===>That is the ONLY way they COULD die.
>>So yes, the
>>curse of death was upon them for they had become
>>===>They were mortal to begin with. They needed the fruit
>>of the tree of life to live for ever.
>>"And the LORD God [i.e. YHWH ELOHIM]
>>said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,
>>to know good and evil:
>>and now, lest he put forth his hand,
>>and take also of the tree of life, and EAT AND LIVE FOR EVER."
> They were not mortal until they sinned.
===>That is not what YHWH ELOHIM says!
> closed them off from the Tree of Life so that they
> could not eat of it in their fallen state and live
> forever in an unfallen state.
They were supposed to live in the Garden and stay alive by
eating the magic fruit. YHWH ELOHIM told his fellow ELOHIM
he was not going to let them do that.
>>>>The snake was not prompted by anyone. The curse of YHWH ELOHIM does not
>>>>suggest the snake acted under the inspiration of some other being. If
>>>>YHWH ELOHIM had known or thought so, he would certainly have said
>>>>about the serpent listening to the "devil". But that is totally
>>>>absent from the story, in fact there is no "Devil" in the entire TANAKH
>>>>("OT"). -- L.
>>>The serpent was not listening to the devil, the serpent
>>>is the devil.
>>===>That is STUPID!
> No, it's not stupid. It's what the Bible says.
===>It says no such thing.
> is Satan.
===>You are a promoter of falsehoods.
He used to be an upright creature covered
> with magnificent jewels. He was cursed and made forever
> after that to crawl on his belly in the dust of the earth.
===>More Christian lies.
Ezekiel is talking about a HUMAN KING, not Satan!
> Ezekiel 28:13:
> "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious
> stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond,
> the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald,
> and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets
> aand of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou
> was created."
>>"Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which Yahweh
>>God had made."
>>It was one of the "animals of the field", not any "devil".
>>There is NOTHING about any "devil" in the entire OT!
>> He did not contain the devil, he was
>>>1 Chronicles 21:1:
>>>"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David
>>>to number Israel.
>>Why did he do that?
>>"the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David
>>against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."
>>So, he was acting for his boss, YHWH!
> Don't change the subject. We were talking about
> Adam and Eve and Satan's motives in the Garden.
===>Ah, so, you don't like to be shown the truth?
I showed you that it was YHWH who supposedly "moved David",
and 1 Chronicles only shows YHWH was acting via his servant,
So, only you can "change the subject",
but when shown how wrong you are, you tell ME
not to chage the subject.
What a sneak you are, Suzanne!
>>>Job 1:6-9; 1:12; 2:1-4; 2:6-7;
>>>6. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to
>>>present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came
>>>also among them.
>>>7. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou?
>>>Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going
>>>to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in
>>>8. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered
>>>my servant Job that there is none like him in the earth, a
>>>perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and
>>>9. Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job
>>>fear God for nought?"
>>>12. "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he
>>>hath is in they power; only upon himself put not forth
>>>thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the
>>Proving he was acting on order from his boss, YHWH!
>>"HE IS IN YOUR POWER!"
>>YHWH is wagering with his deputy, Satan, to prove that
>>Job would remain "perfect and upright".
>>He is NOT acting against YHWH!
> Yes he was. He was accusing and that is not God's will.
===>That is ridiculous!
The OT is LOADED with the "prophets" citing accusations from YHWH,
but there is NO "accusation" involved in the Job story!
It is just a wager between YHWH and his servant Satan to see
how far Job could be pushed before he would turn against YHWH,
knowing full well thet it is YHWH who is sending him the
Does he ever talk about Satan?
He says it is YHWH who gives and YHWH who takes away.
> But the Lord was stringing him along in order to use
> him against himself.
===>What a disgusting view you have!
HWH is "stringing along" his servant Satan by killing the
children, the servants, the live stock of Job and maing him sick.
Your views are beginning to make me sick!
>>>1. "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to
>>>present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also
>>>among them to present himself before the LORD.
>>>2. And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest
>>>thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From
>>>going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and
>>>down in it.
>>>3. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my
>>>servant Job that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect
>>>and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth
>>>evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou
>>>movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
>>===>So, Satan "moved YHWH" against Job!
> Not in the least. Satan could not convince God that Job
> was what Satan was claiming. Satan failed.
===>That much is true.
Satan lost the wager.
But it does not absolve his disgusting boss YHWH
of bringing all those disasters on that poor upright,
>>>4. And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin,
>>>yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life."
>>>6. "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine
>>>hand; but save his life.
>>>7. So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD,
>>>and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot
>>>unto his crown."
>>===>So, Satan of the OT appears "in the presence of YHWH!"
>>Is not "thrown out" as Christians claim.
>>He is NOT acting against YHWH in Genesis, he is not even there!
> He is acting against God. Don't be silly.
===>That os so STUPID!
I am not being silly., just showing the truth of what is and what
is not in those stories. All you do is edit them and insert the
Christian lies over and over again.
>>>6. "Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand
>>>at his right hand."
>>>1. "And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before
>>>the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand
>>>to resist him.
>>>2. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee,
>>>O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke
>>>thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?"
>>===>Again, Satan is simply being "rebuked" for something, but is
>>NOT acting as the adversary of YHWH!
>>That is a NEO-ZOROASTRIAN Christian idea of the DEVIL/AHRIMAN!
>>So, you are even proving yourself totally wrong ON ALL COUNTS! -- L.
> No. On every count, I've given you a scripture that
> shows you the truth.
===<>You twist and edit everything.
There is not one line you can use in support of those lies
without distorting it.
You were shown the verses in
> the Revelation, too, showing that the Serpent, Satan,
> the Devil are all the same person.
No reference to Eden.
Depicting Satan as the "Devil" is the Christian distortion
of the Hebrew concept of Satan, a SERVANT of YHWH!
Instead of all the Christian lies, look
what we find in the TANAKH (Hebrew "OT"):
1) In general, the word "Satan" refers to:
- ANY PERSON acting as AN ACCUSER OR ENEMY. For example:
bullet 1 Samuel 29:4: The Philistines were distrustful of David, fearing
that he would be a satan. (translated "adversary" or "someone who will
turn against us").
- 2 Samuel 19:22: Shime-i apologizes to King David. The King rejects the
apology, saying that THEY SHOULD NOT BE A SATAN to each other
(translated "adversary" or "opponent").
- 1 Kings 5:4: King Solomon is talking to Hiram, the King of Tyre. He
says that now that there is NEITHER SATAN NOR BAD LUCK, he can build the
Temple. (translated as "adversary", "enemy", or "one who opposes").
- 1 Kings 11:14: GOD RAISED UP HADAD AS A SATAN against Solomon.
(translated as "adversary," or "opponent").
2) The word "Satan" refers to A DIVINE MESSENGER SENT BY YHWH AS AN
- Numbers 22:22 & 32: YHWH appears in a dream, telling Balaam to go with
the princes of Moab to meet Balak. But when Balaam sets out the next
morning on his donkey, YHWH IS ANGRY with him for some reason, and SENDS
AN ANGEL/MESSENGER TO KILL HIM! The donkey saw the angel and took
evasive actions. The angel was invisible to Balaam, who beat the animal.
The donkey asked Balaam why he had beat her three times. Balaam, who
doesn't seem to realize that a talking donkey is an unusual occurrence,
replies. The angel then appears and explains that HE HAS COME AS SATAN
TIO KILL HIM. (translated as "one who opposes, "withstand," "adversary")
3) The word "Satan" refers to A MEMBER OF YHWH'S INNER COUNCIL:
- In 2 Samuel 24, the text states that YHWH influenced David to hold a
census. Even though, it is YHWH who had incited David to enumerate the
men of Israel and Judah, YHWH is now angry that it was done and punished
the Israelites with a plague.
1 Chronicles 21:1 the identical event is described. BUT this time,
Satan, a supernatural evil emissary, is ACTING ON YHWH'S ORDER, ON HIS
BEHALF. The census is taken, and YHWH is again described as ANGRY and
punishes the people.
when Samuel was produced (circa 560 BCE), the writers/editors thought
that all supernatural actions (good and bad) came from God. When
Chronicles was written over a century later, YHWH became the "Good Lord
of Zoroastrianism (circa 400 BCE), he cannot do anything evil, so the
writer depicts YHWH as operating indirectly through his servant.
- Job 1 and 2: Satan is described as one of the "sons of YHWH". YHWH
mentions that he is impressed at the behavior of Job, a blameless man
who has lived an upright life. Satan attributes Job's commendable
behavior to his good fortune and says that Job would soon turn against
YHWH if he had a string of really bad luck. YHWH decides to conduct an
experiment with Job: he instructs Satan to destroy all that Job has:
kill his animals, murder his employees, and murder his innocent
children. But, even after these disasters, Job still does not curse
YHWH. So YHWH instructs Satan to up the ante by returning to earth and
destroying Job's health.
Here, Satan is clearly portrayed as a servant of YHWH whose task it is
to dutifully carry out evil deeds at YHWH's instruction.
- Zechariah 3:1-7: Satan is again portrayed as a member of YHWH's
council. Here he objects to the selection of Joshua as the high priest,
and earns a "rebuke" from his boss.
As I have been telling you, Satan isnever portrayed as an evil devil, an
enemy of YHWH in the OT! At worst, he is described as a henchman, a
servant who carries out YHWH's evil instructions, does YHWH's dirty
work. There is yet not an all-good Deity and an all-evil Satan. YHWH is
portrayed as performing, directly and indirectly, through his servants,
both kind and evil deeds. When:
- plagues are to be sent, or
- a great genocidal flood is created to kill off almost all of humanity,
except for Noah and his family, or
- Onan was killed because he practiced an elementary form of birth
control, in violation of a cultural tradition, or
- Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because its residents were abusive to
the needy and to strangers, or
- Lot's wife is turned into a pillar of salt because she dared to look
the wrong way.
And Satan is NOT portrayed as being either the serpent or the one behind
the serpent in the GENESIS story, no matter how much you and other
Christians lie about it.
It is ALWAYS YHWH who does things. The ancient writers of the early
Hebrew Scriptures looked upon YHWH as performing both good and evil
deeds. A good indication of this is found in:
"...I am the LORD and there is none else. I form the light and
create darkness. I make peace an create evil. I the LORD do all these
This is still a rejection of Zoroastrian dualism, found in later Judaism
and permeated Christianity.
In his book, "The History of the Devil" (Newleaf, London, England,
1996), the author G. Messandé shows that from the middle of the 5th
century BCE, after their liberation and repatriation, the Jews were on
particularly good terms with and under the religous/theological
influence of the more advanced culture of the Persians. From the Persian
religion, Zoroastrianism, the Jews picked up a number of concepts: the
immortality of the soul, angels, resurrection, Judgment Day, and Satan.
The Sadducees resisted the foreign influence, but the Parisees and
especially the Essenes focused in on the Persian concept of AHRIMAN,
As shown in the Christian literature, people, including the "Jesus"
character and his followers, accepted a common superstitious belief that
mental illness and some physical ailments were caused as a possession by
"evil spirits" or "demons". "Unclean spirits" are mentioned 7 times in
Mark, once in Matthew, 3 times in Luke and once in Revelation. A "dumb
spirit" and a "deaf spirit" are each mentioned once in Mark. Luke talks
about a "spirit of infirmity" in his gospel, and, a "spirit of
divination" & an "evil spirit" in Acts.
Demons were believed to posses individuals and cause them to mutilate
themselves, to collapse, to foam at the mouth, to thrash around on the
ground. Now we call them epyleptics and, through science, help them
control their illness with medication.
Demons were also seen as the cause of many physical disabilities,
including blindness, spinal deformities, inability to speak. Satan
figures prominently throughout the Christian Scriptures: "Jesus" is
tempted by Satan (Matthew 4:1-3, Luke 4:2), the Pharisees accuse "Jesus"
of casting out demons in the name of "Beelzebub, the prince of the
demons" (Matthew 12:24), etc.
In the writings of Paul and the other apostles, the character and range
of activities of Satan and his demons is further developed. "God and
Satan" are seen as the two most powerful forces in the universe. The
duality between an all-good God and all-evil Satan is firmly
established. In the book of Apcalypse (Revelation) we see a full-blown
description of the Zoroastrian dualism and "end time" fantasy:
there is a great battle between Satan (Ahriman) and God (Ahura Mazda)
resulting in the "end of the world" as we know it.
Oh, well, enough said.
You will no doubt ignore it all and stick to the lies and distortions
you inherited from the deceivers of Christianity.