> RaaN wrote:

>> On May 13, 12:14 am, Robert Epstein verizon.net> wrote:

>

>>>Keynes wrote:

>

>>>>On Mon, 12 May 2008 17:05:09 GMT, Robert Epstein verizon.net> wrote:

>

>>>>>chazwin wrote:

>

>>>>>>On 30 Mar, 00:46, Robert Epstein verizon.net> wrote:

>

>>>>>>>saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:

>

>>>>>>>>On Mar 29, 2:39 pm, Terry Cross hotmail.com> wrote:

>

>>>>>>>>>On Mar 29, 2:06 pm, "<<<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~>>>"

>

>>>>>>>>>gmail.com> wrote:

>

>>>>>>>>>>On Mar 29, 1:39 pm, David yahoo.com> wrote:

>

>>>>>>>>>>>"The first question that arises is: Why was Jesus crucified?
>>>>>>>>>>>Was it because he was a good man - sinless in fact- who
>>>>>>>>>>>during a very short teaching ministry said wise things that
>>>>>>>>>>>other Jews had also said? Or because he performed
>>>>>>>>>>>remarkable miracles of healing, helping many people?
>>>>>>>>>>>For no legal reason that is ever given, the Jews seized
>>>>>>>>>>>him and arranged for Pontius Pilate to crucify him.
>>>>>>>>>>>Pilate, administering Roman justice, threw in a couple
>>>>>>>>>>>of thieves and executed them also, although it would be
>>>>>>>>>>>contrary to the Roman system of law to give capital
>>>>>>>>>>>punishment for any but the most serious crimes."

>

>>>>>>>>>>Jesus was crucified because it fulfilled prophecy concerning the
>>>>>>>>>>Messiah (see how simple that was?).

>

>>>>>>>>>Heh, read Deuteronomy 13. The loving father god of Jesus was
>>>>>>>>>obviously not the same God as angry, jealous, punishing, racist
>>>>>>>>>Jehovah. And the Pharisees knew it and they had their instructions.

>

>>>>>>>>>Also, Jesus poked the Pharisees in the ribs with their own
>>>>>>>>>hypocrisies. That by itself guaranteed the death sentence. But Jesus
>>>>>>>>>also "defiled" the Temple, and that too is a punishable by death. If
>>>>>>>>>you read some of the Gospels, you find the Sanhedrin hired Judas
>>>>>>>>>within a few days of the Temple incident.

>

>>>>>>>>>TCross

>

>>>>>>>>The real question, Terry, is not why did the Jews want to crucify
>>>>>>>>Jesus, but why did Jesus allow them to crucify Him? The relevant
>>>>>>>>passages are:

>

>>>>>>>>John 19

>

>>>>>>>>[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest
>>>>>>>>thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release
>>>>>>>>thee?
>>>>>>>>[11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me,
>>>>>>>>except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me
>>>>>>>>unto thee hath the greater sin.
>>>>>>>>[12] And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews
>>>>>>>>cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's
>>>>>>>>friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

>

>>>>>>>>By His own testimony, Jesus was crucified by the spiritual force that
>>>>>>>>came through the Jews and probably is still coming through them to
>>>>>>>>this day. Was that spiritual force JHVH? Or was it Satan? There are
>>>>>>>>many possibilities and a true analysis might be very difficult,
>>>>>>>>requiring more persistence to uncover than the JFK or RFK or MLK or MX
>>>>>>>>assassinations. One must be careful not to judge G-D by human
>>>>>>>>standards of good and evil. G-D's purpose may be more to teach us to
>>>>>>>>transcend this world than to improve this world. Still, the issue of
>>>>>>>>racism and deception to cover up the racism looms large in the history
>>>>>>>>of the Jews. Such a double standard seems very difficult if not
>>>>>>>>impossible to rationalize in any legitimate way. It is the ten
>>>>>>>>thousand pound gorilla in the foyer that no one wants to acknowledge
>>>>>>>>as real.

>

>>>>>>>Pilate was not a Jew.

>

>>>>>>Pilate was the Roman governor of Judea. He washes his hands of the
>>>>>>crucifiction and gave the Jews the choice who to kill because it was
>>>>>>their holy festival of the passover.
>>>>>>The Jews killed Jesus.

>

>>>>>He washed his hands because he didn't want to deal with the consequences
>>>>>of killing a charismatic Jew under his rule. "The Jews" did not kill
>>>>>Jesus. The ruling body of the Jews at that time handed him over to the
>>>>>Romans, who killed him. The ruling body of the Pharisees DID NOT and DO
>>>>>NOT represent the Jews of the time, or their point of view on Jesus.
>>>>>All of Jesus' followers at that time were Jewish as well. Blame the
>>>>>Roman and Jewish authorities who jointly carried out the execution. Not
>>>>>"The Jews" as if they were a monolithic body. This globalized prejudice
>>>>>has gone on long enough, and is not accurate.

>

>>>>>It's like holding all Americans responsible for Iraq, although Bush went
>>>>>in over massive objections.

>

>>>>>>>The Jews did not crucify Jesus.
>>>>>>>"The Jews" as a body did not want to crucify Jesus.
>>>>>>>Both the Jewish elders who assented to his crucifixion after the issue
>>>>>>>was thrown back to them by the Roman authorities AND Jesus' followers
>>>>>>>were Jewish, so there is no "The Jews" who wanted to cruficy anyone.

>

>>>>>>The Jewish authorities were instrumental in bringing Jesus to justice
>>>>>>for all his blasphemy and political agitation.

>

>>>>>Right, and they were one particular political body in a particular time
>>>>>and place. The Romans who carried out the execution with their barbaric
>>>>>methods are equally responsible, and the Jews as a people have no blame
>>>>>for the murder.

>

>>>>>The Pharisees ruled with permission of the Romans. Any Pharisee who did
>>>>>not accept the Roman ways of doing things would not have been allowed to
>>>>>serve as an elder. Yet, the Romans get a clean bill of health, while
>>>>>the Jews as an entire people get centuries of persecution. Is that fair?

>

>>>>>>>Throughout most of history, the Jews have been persecuted within every
>>>>>>>society in which they have existed. To say that they have been guilty
>>>>>>>of racism and covering up racism is an amazing distortion.

>

>>>>>>We see it here on NG every day. Jews are no different to gentiles -
>>>>>>there are examples of racists in every human group.

>

>>>>>Except that the Jews have been selected over the centuries for an
>>>>>unusual degree of hatred and persecution. Other than that, they are as
>>>>>diverse and flawed as any other group.

>

>>>>>>>You are a foolish and inaccurate anti-semite.

>

>>>>>>Now who is being racist?

>

>>>>>It is not "racist" to call someone an anti-semite. Someone who is
>>>>>against Jews and is prejudiced towards Jews is an anti-semite. It is a
>>>>>simple definition which does not apply to any particular race. That is
>>>>>obvious, so you are not using the term very well.

>

>>>>>"Foolish," "inaccurate" and "anti-semite" may be insulting, but they are
>>>>>not racial insults.

>

>>>>>Robert

>

>>>>>= = = = =

>

>>>>I think the jews have been persecuted for the
>>>>reason that their religion demands separation
>>>>from non-jews. It preserves the religion by
>>>>non-asymilation, but it leads to distrust among
>>>>non-jews, and a honking big superiority complex
>>>>among the orthodox. (racism? How can God's
>>>>own chosen people ever be wrong about anything?)

>

>>>>Also many jews have been above average scholars
>>>>and thinkers who rise to positions of influence.
>>>>This leads to jealosy. Some of them have been
>>>>talented financiers, and when the economy knocks
>>>>you down and keeps you down, it's easy to blame
>>>>the jews.

>

>>>>I don't think the germans gave a damn about
>>>>Jesus or the crucifixion. All the pograms,
>>>>oppressions, and suppressions had 'reasons'
>>>>in their own times. High ranking nazis stole
>>>>everything that the jews had, just as Ferdinand
>>>>did in 1492 Spain.

>

>>>True, the Nazi reasons for wiping out the Jews were lies, but the
>>>background prejudice against them as outsiders, merchants and killers of
>>>Christ have made it much easier to scapegoat them. Even in your
>>>statement that many have risen to become high-level financiers is only
>>>partially true. Most of the richest and most influential bankers,
>>>politicians, movers and shakers continue to be Protestants, not Jews,
>>>not Catholics, not women and not those of diverse ethnicity. Why don't
>>>the poor disenfranchised whites rise up against the super-rich
>>>Protestants who really run the country? Never does happen.

>

>>>Robert

>

>>>= = = = = = = =

>

>> I've tried.. doesn't do any good.
>> --
>> RaaN

>
> At least you tried.
> Why not rise up against the French? That seems to be popular. :)
>
> Robert
>
> = = = = = = =