> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom" comcast.net>
>
> Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.religion.druid,alt.religion.wicca
> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Real magic seven part one, patterns of ritual
>

>> "Searles O'Dubhain" wrote in message
>>news:PrCdnd9mD6KFmhLVnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com...

>

>>> "Tom" comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>news:L9SdnX9IU81DbxDVnZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@comcast.com...

>

>>>> "Searles O'Dubhain" wrote in message
>>>>news:2N6dnUTTF-LRKxDVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@comcast.com...

>

>>>>> First of all, there were more than three classes of Celtic society.
>>>>> There were slaves at the lowest class. There were people who were
>>>>> pretty much like indentured servents (to repay debts). There were
>>>>> simple farmers and herdsmen. There were larger farmers. There were
>>>>> warriors. There were crafts people.

>

>>>> It's clear that Caesar was generalizing, but he was a pretty sharp guy
>>>> and the likelihood that his observations were largely accurate is very
>>>> good. Of course there were all sorts of people doing this and that, but
>>>> the mere existence of divisions of labor does not refute the allegations
>>>> about the standard of living for the majority of Gauls.

>

>>> The class structure reported in the Crith Gabhlach of the Irish Brehon
>>> Laws demonstrates there were seven divisions or grades to society. I
>>> mentioned this because it shows that Celtic society was more of a
>>> continuum than a 'them and us' division between the wealthy and the
>>> poor/enslaved. In between the lowest and the highest levels of society
>>> were grades of farmers (some more wealthy than others), craftsmen (here
>>> again wealth levels differ) and traders:

>

>> Yes, things are always more complex than any generalization we can make,
>> yet that doesn't necessarily falsify the generalization.

>
> I'm going to review what's been said inthe thread before replying further. I
> don't disagree that the slaves had the lowest standards of living among the
> Celts or that those who were not enslaved but were more or less clients also
> had a low standard of living. My mention of the class sturcture is to
> clearly show that there were some classes of means between the kings, Druids
> and warrior who had a higher standard of living. It was also possible to
> rise in class through achievement.
>

>>>> One way to duck an argument is to suggest that a person cease the
>>>> argument until they read some obscure books. That effectively ends the
>>>> argument until the person finishes finding and reading those books. By
>>>> then, of course, the argument goes very stale and nobody is interested
>>>> in continuing it. No, I will not be forsaking my position in order to
>>>> go find and read the books on your suggested reading list. If there is
>>>> something in those books that refutes my position, quote the relevant
>>>> passages.

>

>>> I'm just lazy and did not want to do the research as it's difficult in
>>> the absence of any unbiased testimony to find many account of the Gauls
>>> that were eyewitnessed.

>

>> I understand.

>

>> Part of the problem with finding "unbiased" reports is that noboby is ever
>> unbiased. Certainly you and I are not. Our own biases make it difficult
>> for us to recognize a lack of bias should we ever run across it.

>

>> I'm not going to diss the ancient Celts and their Druids any further. I
>> think they were just fine, even if they did have a lot of lice. My point
>> is that modern Druidism is a reconstruction of ways that disappeared from
>> the earth many, many years ago. Our reconstructions of them contain our
>> own modern biases and fantasies. Modern Druids are not ancient Druids.
>> There is no direct, unbroken, unadulterated line of Druidism that has
>> existed from the distant past to the present. This does not invalidate
>> your philosophy. It only demystifies it.

>
> The Druid traditions were preserved by the Filidh in their schools and their
> traditions as an organized part of Gaelic society until the mid 16th century
> CE (same for the Brehonshttp://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/celtic/22papers/simms.pdf). Filidh
> remained after this time in Ireland and Scotland passing traditions along
> family lines (http://www.strandnet.com/daly/pdf/dalyhis2.pdf). The last File
> of note historically was Owen Roe O'Sullivan (Eoghan Ruadh Ó Súilleabháin)
> of the later 18th century:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Roe_O'Sullivan
>
> After this time there were still Filidh in Ireland who were considered with
> a supernatural dread by the people.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5rm27r
>
> "Well, I don't doubt that some traditions were carried on unofficially and
> possibly even in a widespread manner. You only have to look at the various
> practices still going on in Ireland in the 19th century - much to the
> disapproval of the Church. However, that's the difference between the
> writings of the elite and what is going on generally. The written record may
> be quite unrepresentative of life as a whole. Now this is definitely true of
> the historical period - authors took no notice of life outside the notable
> families (or at least the most notable Anglo-Irish families) except to hold
> up the ideas and practices of the locals to ridicule. You can pretty much
> guarantee that the same was true of earlier generations. There's still stuff
> going round that hasn't been recorded or, at best, is only mentioned in two
> sentences in some book written in the 1840s, or a few mentions in medieval
> accounts. " - Kevin Jones
>
> I've said quite a bit on this topic in the past:
>
> http://www.keltria.org/hengehap/HH75/HH75-DP-Druids-pt1.htmhttp://tinyurl.com/6yjxo8http...
>
> as have others:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~merlynne6/eBooks/OLLAV.pdf
>
> The record preserves the works and history of the Filidh even outside their
> hereditary families (). It is unnecessary to be a member of an unbroken
> string of tradition as one can learn from it. What can be regretted is that
> all of the traditions cannot have survived over time and the onslaughts that
> history, the English and the Famine/Diaspora placed upon Gaelic culture and
> the surviving traditional practices of the Filidh. It is in this area that
> one must reconstruct and recover within the influence and guidance of what
> *did* survive.
>
> More survivals:
>
> "is reported in _Pilgrimage in Ireland_ by Peter Harbison on page 207 of the
> chapter "Ogham Stones." He reports that John Windele recorded the case of a
> 19th century farmer named Collins near Kinsale in Cork who had a poem on the
> zodiac painted in white Ogham letters on his walking stick. This same farmer
> was also brought up before the magistrate a Petty Court for not having his
> name on the shaft of his cart as required by law. To prove that the Ogham on
> his cart shaft was his name, he had to get the local priest to come forward
> and read the inscription for the (Ogham illiterate) court."
>
> "Families of the Filidh"http://www.suburbanbanshee.net/irishptr/drchpoem/families.html
>
> I say there are traditions yet to be found in the hereditary families of the
> Filidh, the survivors of the Druids.
>
> Searles O'Dubhain