> On May 2, 12:15 pm, The Speaking Clock  wrote:
>

>> On 2 May, 19:06, mika wrote:

>

>>> Sometimes people's basic needs and desires change, or more likely,
>>> they discover what they thought they wanted wasn't what they really
>>> wanted and they finally accept their actual nature.  But anyway,
>>> either way, people will either grow together or grow apart.  All we
>>> can do is focus on figuring out our own self, not take it personally
>>> if we become incompatible with the people we love, not blame them
>>> either, then face that reality and deal with it honestly.  There's my
>>> relationship philosophy in a nutshell.

>

>> What about if we become incompatible with the people we love through
>> selfishness and the desire to pursue our own needs?

>
> Every single thing we do in life is the result of pursuing our own
> needs, even a seemingly selfless act.

> You are using the word "selfish" as if it's a bad thing.  However, if
> you are not selfish enough to become aware of and then make the effort
> to satisfy your own essential needs, you will constantly be looking to
> others for personal fulfillment, which inevitably leads to unrealistic
> expectations, resentment, and general unhappiness.

> I'll put this in words that may be more palatable for you:

> " And you who seek to know me,
> know that the seeking and yearning
> will avail you not,
> unless you know the Mystery:
> for if that which you seek,
> you find not within yourself,
> you will never find it without."

> http://www.magicwicca.com/wicca/charge_goddess.html

> For those needs that require the involvement of other people, it is
> your right and responsibility to establish your expectations and
> boundaries honestly and then allow others to decide whether or not
> they are compatible; if they aren't, it is your right and
> responsibility to go find people who are so that you can get those
> needs met by people who are willing to meet them.

>> There are any
>> amount of self justifications can be handed out to the loved one but
>> the basic fact is that people can and do hurt those they love by
>> pursuing a greater understanding of thier own selves.

>
> Sure.  The potential for others to be hurt by following one's own path
> is part of life.  No justification is necessary either.  Everyone gets
> to do what's right for themselves.

>> That they do it
>> in an honest fashion whilst hurting the beloved and ignoring thier
>> needs and expectations in the relationship is really no excuse.

>
> The critical issue here is being very clear and honest with yourself
> and your loved ones about your essential, mandatory needs.  The
> "dealbreakers".  Then, being unconditionally flexible when it comes to
> everything else.  If you or your beloved's actions go against either
> of your dealbreakers, then the issue is one of compatibility, which is
> impersonal.  You are not hurting the beloved and they are not hurting
> you,

> what's happening is you/he are feeling pain due to the
> incompatibility.  This is not something to be avoided, this is the
> reality of your relationship, you have to face the incompatibility and
> decide whether either of you can change or if it truly is a
> 'dealbreaker'.

> For example, my essential needs are quite simple:  no monogamy, no
> children, no cohabitation; plus I require a significant amount of
> personal time, space, freedom and privacy.  Everything else is
> unconditionally negotiable, and cannot be used as 'currency' or
> 'ammunition'.  That is, as a simple example, for me family involvement
> is not established up front as an essential need, thus if a partner
> invites someone else to his family Christmas dinner, I don't get to
> use that against him during an argument about something else or act as
> if it's supremely meaningful with the expectation that he 'makes it up
> to me somehow'.  Something is either important or it's not, if it's
> important then you must state it up front and be compatible for the
> relationship to work, if it's not important then not conforming to
> that expectation is not personal or meaningful and must be let go.
>

>> Taking the high moral ground and not blaming anyone is just thin
>> garment covering a will to be top dog.

>
> Two points here.  First, there is no blame involved at all.  Everyone
> has the right to do what's right for ourselves, and in order to have
> healthy, lasting relationships, we have the responsibility to be
> honest with ourselves and others about our needs and expectations.
> Sometimes people change, and that has nothing to do with anyone else,
> it's a part of life.  It's a grand mistake to take other people's
> choices personally.
>
> Second, when it comes to living your life, you will always be 'top
> dog' regarding your own choices and actions.  This is not a fact that
> needs to be covered or apologized for or blamed for doing.  It's your
> life, you get to do whatever the fuck you want with it, just like
> everyone else.
>
> If you give up your own needs for someone else, that's also your
> choice, and if you make that choice, you don't get to use that against
> the other person or use that as currency (eg "I changed religions for
> you so now you have to make a baby for me" or some such thing, though
> usually the manipulation and expectations are much more subtle).  As I
> said, if you want to have healthy, lasting relationships, you have to
> be aware of your essential needs, you and your partner(s) must have
> compatible essential needs, and everything else must be
> unconditionally negotiable.  If there are incompatibilities, even if
> they show up late in the relationship, it's not personal and they
> shouldn't be avoided or ignored, even if they are momentarily painful
> and uncomfortable.