>Well, you ARE still anonymous, of course. Not being a member
>of the HOGD / A+O, i have no way of knowing whether there is
>or is not a Soror M.D.L.L. in the group. You may be as
>fictional as our old newsgroup friend Bruce, who used to
>claim that he was posting from an underground solar-powered
>commune. I mean, either someone is anonymous or they are
>not. You are. This does NOT mean i will not listen
>respectfully to what you say, or that i will discount your
>veracity. It just means that any factual narrative you
>provide will be noted as coming from ANON M.D.L.L. -- and
>please, udnerstand, this is simply about levels of trust,
>not an impugnment of your veracity.

> Soror M.D.L.L. wrote:

>> This post is in response to Catherine Yronwode's posts and inquiries
>> regarding the HOGD/ A&O, David Griffin, and the false allegations
>> thereof. This is my fourth attempt at posting, as my 2 posts from
>> yesterday evening 5/15, did not go through for some reason in reply
>> to her post . I suspect something went awry with my Google account as
>> I just opened it up yesterday prior to posting- so I am new to the
>> group, but very disappointed that I have to recap everything from my
>> previous posts that got lost in cyber-space. I also did not see my
>> post at the bottom of the thread earlier in attempt #3 today. So now I
>> am just going to post it as a seperate topic and clarify as to whose
>> post / issues I am replying to. Please read this message in it's
>> entirety.

>
> I have done so, and will now interlineate my replies.
>

>> "Cat"- although I commend you on not using a false ID to state your
>> opinions and inquiries on this newsgroup, and you obviously have
>> nothing to hide in terms of identity , it is very disturbing to see
>> all the propaganda being spread about the HOGD/ A&O and David Griffin.

>
> I am sure it is.
>

>> I too am not anonymous. I have been a member of the HOGD/A&O now for
>> over 2 years I am posting under my real HOGD/A&O motto initials ,
>> Soror M.D.L.L. Although I am new to the newsgroups on Google as far
>> as participating, I am not new to the slander that has been going on
>> here for well over a year and while it calmed down for awhile, now
>> it's all heated up again and the same old links to Nazi site
>> propaganda are popping up here like filthy cockroaches that should
>> have been squashed a long time ago. It has finally disturbed me enough
>> to come out of my " shelter" and write rather than merely read, and on
>> behalf of the Order I love so dearly, my brothers and sisters in the
>> order, and our Chief Adept , David Griffin.

>
> Well, you ARE still anonymous, of course. Not being a member
> of the HOGD / A+O, i have no way of knowing whether there is
> or is not a Soror M.D.L.L. in the group. You may be as
> fictional as our old newsgroup friend Bruce, who used to
> claim that he was posting from an underground solar-powered
> commune. I mean, either someone is anonymous or they are
> not. You are. This does NOT mean i will not listen
> respectfully to what you say, or that i will discount your
> veracity. It just means that any factual narrative you
> provide will be noted as coming from ANON M.D.L.L. -- and
> please, udnerstand, this is simply about levels of trust,
> not an impugnment of your veracity.
>

>> You want the real story, with real answers, then take into account
>> what those who are active members in this order have to write/ say
>> about it in testimonials, such as myself .. - Oh, and before the
>> feathers start to get all ruffled and some troll starts thinking of
>> childish or obscene names to call me and also if some idiot decides to
>> trace my IP address or surfs around for " dirt". - I am doing this of
>> my free will, I am nobody's damn sock puppet and I have nothing to
>> hide, so if someone wants to debase themselves and look more moronic
>> and possibly have a lawsuit on their hands- then that is their
>> choice.. If some one tries to pose as me, well then whomever will have
>> a serious problem as I am very good at pre-empting and covering all
>> bases. I am well aware of the trolls hiding in cyber-knolls.

>
> Good for you.
>

>> I am just really sick and tired of seeing all the false allegations.
>> I cannot stand to see my friends, teachers, students, as well as the
>> HOGD/A&O as a whole being represented in such a heinous manner. As
>> stated before, I have been in this order for over 2 years.

>
> Oky, here is your narrative:
>
> -----
> Soror M.D.L.L. claims to have been a member of HOGD / A+O
> since 2005...
> -----
>

>> During the
>> entire time - from pledge, 0=0 to my now 3=8 grade status ( all
>> physical initiations ) ,

>
> -----
> ...has received phsyical initiations to the grade of 3=8...
> -----
>
> I have never seen any prejudice in our order
>

>> towards race, ethnicity, religious background, gender or sexual
>> orientation in the HOGD/A&O. Also, I have not met, nor heard of any
>> Nazis either. David Griffin is not a Nazi, nor is anyone else that I
>> know of. I have worked with plenty of 4=7 members and not one is a
>> Nazi ! If someone wants to know what we do in a 4=7 initiation, they
>> should read Regardie's books. I have done quite a bit of Temple work
>> and there is no Nazi methodology, representation or theory involved !
>> Nothing weird or scary there ! How many more lies need to be created
>> and propagated on this newsgroup ?

>
> -----
> ...and avers that there is no Nazi material in the teachings
> or rites.
> -----
>

>> If the HOGD/A&O was some sort of Nazi cult, I would have run away from
>> it like hell, or not had anything to do with it from the beginning. My
>> former in-laws were Jewish and I myself resonate more with Qabbalistic
>> principles than even the religion I was born into, which was Catholic.
>> I do have existing family members who are part Jewish . I wear the
>> Star of David - the encircled hexagram, sacred representation of the
>> macro/microcosim every day, close to my heart that always reminds me
>> of my spiritual goals. I have Jewish friends as well . I do not
>> consider myself to be a religious person in a dogmatic sense. I am
>> eclectic and have studied and practiced Buddhism and Kemetic as well
>> as Qabbalistic principles and find Gnostic Christianity interesting,
>> but I do not call myself Christian since I can just as easily be
>> called a Jew, Buddhist, Taoist , Kemetic ,Pagan or Wiccan. I am
>> overall , a Hermeticist on the spiritual path of the Magician. There
>> are members in the HOGD/A&O that are of all races/ religions and
>> orientations. This should dispel the whole Nazi allegations, not to
>> mention that our order is somehow " challenged" with regards to
>> membership numbers- Not the case- I sure am busy with students !

>
> -----
> Soror M.D.L.L. is herself opposed to racism and says that,
> in her personal knowledge, people of all races, religions,
> and orientations are to be found in HOGD / A+O, which is in
> no way a Nazi or racist group.
> -----
>

>> I myself as an HOGD/A&O tutor, have students spanning 3 continents on
>> the globe- this should further dispel the myth of our order being just
>> some dinky study group- we are worldwide. I can offer you these
>> truths, Cat , since I am an active member in the HOGD/A&O who is a
>> tutor, moderator, class instructor and project manager for the HOGD/
>> A&O ,as well as s student. I have worked with our Chief Adept , David
>> Griffin and I can attest to his character. He is a highly creative,
>> intelligent person with much compassion for humanity and the
>> environment. . He has even helped my family and myself when in need.
>> But he will not tolerate having his integrity attacked or that of the
>> Order. He is protective in this manner and rightfully so. Is this not
>> the role of the Imperator of a GD Order?

>
> -----
> As a tutor in HOGD / A+O, she also states that she has
> students on 3 continents and knows David Griffin personally...
> -----
>

>> Balance of Mercy and Severity is key. It is a cornerstone of
>> Hermeticism. I respect David Griffin , and for me, someone has to
>> prove to me their honesty and intent as being beneficial , not to
>> mention courage, before I can truly respect someone enough to vouch
>> for them, no matter who they are or their status . David Griffin has
>> proven his honesty and mettle. All order members regardless of gender,
>> race, and sexual orientation are treated with equanimity. He also has
>> a great sense of humor. He seems to be portrayed by mud-slingers also
>> as humorless- which is really false. LOL! Ditto for Jorge Hevia III,
>> Praemonstrator Ordinis of our Order- very nice man, but very sharp
>> witted. Not at all like the way he has been negatively portrayed.

>
> -----
> ...as well as knowing Jorge Hevia III.
> -----
>

>> Do you know why David Griffin and the HOGD/A&O are being attacked over
>> and over again? Jealousy- just that simple, because of his
>> contributions to the occult community that no one else in any other
>> order have thought of, or at least had the courage to undertake, and
>> because of lineage. Some examples of this are: The reformation of the
>> Outer Order - all material was moved from the Second Order to the
>> Outer. This was all published material anyways. What this did was
>> give Outer Order practitioners the opportunity of having an
>> accelerated curriculum - to be able to actually do invocations, beyond
>> the LBRP, Middle Pillar, and Opening by Watchtower and advance
>> spiritually more quickly . As an Outer Order member, I can attest to
>> the effectiveness of the rituals and that none of them have caused me
>> any problems. These rituals are published in David Griffin's " Ritual
>> Magic Manual". This is published and anyone can get a copy. Also, the
>> newest welcome addition to the occult by David Griffin is the SM&AO,
>> focusing on Alchemy and Sexual Magick, When this all came out there
>> was a heyday as to where it's lineage came from, where David Griffin
>> got the transmissions to form this. Well, from what I understand,
>> there are more than just one strain of lineage of the SM&AO since the
>> origin of material pre-dates the original Golden Dawn of the 1800's.,
>> so it's baffled other respective GD orders and caused all kinds of
>> speculation - enter the historians and their theories and counter
>> theories. Would you not rather be trying it out to see if it works,
>> rather than just criticizing it's lineage from an armchair ? Those
>> that just sit around bantering about history, but do not actually do
>> much magickally are not Magicians, they are more or less " Occult
>> Historical Analysts". LOL !!!

>
> -----
> She believes that attacks against Griffin are motivated by
> jealousy over his creative contributions to GD studies and
> ritual work.
> -----
>
> I shall now respond to you directly, Soror M.D.L.L.:
>

>> Cat, I understand that you are a " collector" of sorts of occult
>> order commentary and memorabilia on the web- ok, great .

>
> I am definitely a collector, but also i am an archivist.
> There is a difference. As an archivist, i wish to create a
> coherent body of information for the use of future querents
> on the subjct.
>

>> But also, it
>> is understood that you are in direct affiliation with an member of the
>> OSOGD- this group has been bashing and trashing the HOGD/A&O and David
>> Griffin for years.

>
> Hmmm. Yes, i am married to a man who has received initiation
> in the OSOGD. However, i am unaware that the OSOGD "has been
> bashing and trashing the HOGD/A&O and David Griffin for
> years." If they do so, it is not online, the chief place
> that i relate to them. My husband has never bashed or
> trashed David Griffin, to my knowledge. In fact, the OSOGD's
> lack of involvement in the current GD set-to has resulted in
> the OSOGD not even being mentioned in any of the defamatory
> posts or web sites. Yours is the first cite of them. I will
> now add them to the list:
>
> -----
> Soror M.D.L.L. claims that the OSOGD "has been bashing and
> trashing the HOGD/A&O and David Griffin for years."
> -----
>
> That will force me to add an entry on the OSOGD, of course,
> and probably one on Sam Webster.
>
> By the way, the fact that i began to collect and archive
> this material has also led some others to categorize me as
> an "agent of Chic Cicero," which i am not.
>

>> If you want to know what all the acronyms mean
>> and who is in contest with whom, I suggest you ask your husband.

>
> I did! He hasn't got a clue! He knows Runyon, Zalewski,
> Gilbert, Word, and such. He knew better than i did the
> correct way to spell Mackenzie. He had no idea that Cris
> Monnastre is Paticia Behman, had never heard of Maria
> Babwahsingh, and, like me, STILL has no idea whether Ms.
> Cicero's first name is spelled Tabitha or Tabatha.
>

>> Why
>> keep going outside the family fold to get answers to questions you
>> either already know, or could get answers to via your husband ?

>
> You credit us with knowledge we simply do not have. The
> reason i am assembling these narratives is to LEARN
> something. Sheesh.
>

>> How
>> is it that you keep pretending to not know about occult GD orders ,
>> terminology or key leaders? And please do not just reply " I am just a
>> folk magician". While that may or may not be the case, if you are
>> married , even just cohabitating under the same roof in a committed
>> relationship, you are going to at least know something about the other
>> person's whereabouts . Also, given you are a collector of occult order
>> commentary, that means you cannot play the innocent card !

>
> My knowledge of occult orders is spread somewhere between
> the 1860s and the 1930s. I am conversant with folks like
> Ayton, Davenport, Randolph, Waite, Jennings, and such, even
> can tell you a bit about folks like Clymer, Case, and other
> mouldy figs of their ilk. And when i adopt occult orders of
> yore, let me tell you, i like 'em fringie. I have a run of
> Mazdaznan! I have copies of the Luminus of the Enumerators!
> I am the only living person who is researching the history
> of The Crystal Silence League! And ... get this! ... i own a
> rare original copy of "The Muriel Method"!!!!
>
> So i was just sitting around one day, reading usenet, and
> there were all of these defamatory posts and i thought,
> "Well, these modern groups ... gosh, i really have no idea
> what they're up to, in fact, i haven't got even a remote
> clue as to who is right, who is wrong, who is telling the
> truth, and who is lying ... so i guess i'll try to log these
> posts and assemble a coherent narrative from them."
>
> This is not "playing the innocent card." It is going, "Hey,
> lookit all them butterflies over there! I wonder how many
> different kinds there are and what kinds of foods they eat!
> Think i'll go on over and find out!"
>

>> I for one, do not buy your cover.

>
> Please, spare me your paranoia!
>

>> But then again that is my opinion.

>
> Okey-dokey.
>

>> If you can prove that you have absolutely no knowledge of what's going
>> on in the GD occult quarter , that you never talk to your spouse about
>> such things, never overheard anything or ever got involved ( which is
>> already dis-proven here on this thread as well as others on this
>> newsgroup- you appear to " catalogue" facts quite well and ask very
>> poignant queries for someone claiming to be totally ignorant ), then
>> I apologize for any assumed accusations,

>
> I accept your apology!
>

>> but I do not apologize under
>> any circumstances for my own experiences in truth and opinions !

>
> No apology necessary. Thanks for contributing.
>

>> LVX,

>

>> Soror M.D.L.L.

>
> cat yronwode, the woman with the most pamphlets by Lloyd
> Kenyon Jones in Forestville, California