NoVA101
gmail.com> writes:
> On Aug 9, 3:02Â pm, monkeym...@hactrn.ch (Monkey Mind) wrote:
>> NoVA101
gmail.com> writes:>>> Here is my understanding at this point. The act of "becoming
>>> enlightened" or "waking up" or "realizing your enlightenment" can ONLY
>>> ever happen ***spontaneously***.
>>
>>> That is to say, there is nothing you can *do* to become what you
>>> already are.
>>
>> Let's move the spot light a bit, so I can show you why I don't think
>> this is helpful, or even meaningful.
>>
>> "There's nothing I can do to *prevent* myself from becoming from what
>> I already am."
>>
>> That's exactly the same idea, just worded negatively, and suddenly it
>> doesn't sound so attractive any more.
>
> If you already are what you are, then how can you ever talk about
> *becoming* what you are, or preventing yourself from becoming what you
> are? You already are that. You can't "prevent becoming" what you
> already are, just as you can't "work towards" what you already are.
> Ever.
That's what I said, it doesn't sound so good any more, eh? "Either
I'm destined for it, or I'm not. Nothing I can do about it." Maybe
you don't mean to say that, but it's what you are saying.
>>> Reworded more accurately -> There is nothing little-you (also known as
>>> the body and mind) can do to make Real-You what Real-You already is.
>>
>> So what is Real-You? What is it that manifests moment-to-moment? And
>> most importantly, are you perceptive enough to notice?
>
> Again, "little-you", the mind, is confused. When the mind writes, "are
> you perceptive enough" it is saying, is THE MIND perceptive enough.
> You are not the mind. The Real you IS perception itself. Awareness
> itself.
>
> So what is the Real-You? PURE awareness. Which is completely different
> than the perceptions of the senses of the body/mind animal organism.
> You are NOT that! Really.
Yeah, what my teacher keeps saying is that I'm not my perceptions, be
they perceptions of the body or perceptions of the mind (ideas,
memories, plans). He also claims that I should not believe him,
instead, he encourages me to have a hard good look at perceptions of
the mind and body, because that's the way I can actually convince
myself of this fact, instead of just committing one more idea ("I'm
not my perceptions") to my memory.
Further, he claims that by the same method, the illusions of
permanence and satisfactoriness will fall away from perception.
Again, I get the impression (uh-huh!) that we're on to the same thing,
only differing in method (or non-method, as it were).
> What is it that manifests moment-to-moment? Pure illusion. The play of
> nothingness. The greatest game in the universe. Not real. That which
> appears to manifest is The Dream. When you wake up, you will know the
> dream for what it is -- illusion.
>
> Are you perceptive enough to notice? You ARE awareness, God, Love,
> everything, Oneness, Non-Duality, Emptiness. That is WHAT YOU ARE. You
> are not perceptive. You don't have perceptions (the body/mind does --
> you are NOT that!!!) You are everything.
Thanks for the compliments!
Would you say the same to a killer, an exploitive corporate manager, a
scheming politician, a violent alcoholic, a sexual predator? "You ARE
awareness, God, Love, everything, Oneness, Non-Duality, Emptiness" -
hey, keep up the great work, you're doing and undoing just like the
perfect enlightened being you already are?
;) (but still, think about it for a moment)
> You are not perceiving impermanence RIGHT NOW because you believe (the
> mind believes) that something must be done in order to have such a
> perception. You ARE impermanence. The belief that you must engage in
> some rigorous practice IS the problem, that IS the romantic story!!!
> Stop trying, and you will get it! You believe that you must do
> something to get it.
At the moment, you seem to believe that you must do something so I get
it.
> In fact if you 100%% do nothing, THEN you will instantly get it! The
> mind believes something must be done to get it, when the mind is out
> of the way, then YOU shine through. You are there RIGHT NOW.
But just at the top of this post, you insisted that there's nothing I
can do or stop doing to make the real me shine through.
> Rather than believing the romantic stories in the mind that you must
> DO something, realize that you (mind) literally must give up all
> doing, all striving, all wanting, all practicing, all belief that
> "someday in the future if I just work hard enough"...... then YOU --
> the REAL you -- will be all that is left. Which is all that there ever
> is. All that APPEARS to be something else is the illusion.
Did you catch my post on formulating a goal, on how to bring the goal
into the present, into the practice happening right now? If so, I'd be
interested in your opinion.
>> See, maybe we are talking about the same stuff, me getting edgy at
>> your use of the phrase "can't become what you already are", you only
>> seeing another intellectual achievement trip in meditation.
>
> Neither meditation or any other practice can ever make you what you
> already are. I have this argument with a friend all the time. I was on
> a Mindfulness Meditation rage for a while. I studied Jon Kabat Zinn --
> great stuff! And I practiced rigorously. Then I studied Vipassana --
> the very method taught by the Buddha himself -- well then, that must
> be it!!! I *KNEW* that if it worked for the almighty Buddha, then it
> must work for little old me. Someday. Sometime in the future.
> Somehow.
>
> So I happily discussed this with my friend. HE TOLD ME I WAS WRONG.
> Vipassana is crap. Buddhism is CRAP! He knows the way. He knows the
> RIGHT way, the BETTER way, the more EFFICIENT way. It is TM --
> transcendental meditation. MUCH better than that old-fashioned
> Buddhism crap. Much newer technology! (using super ancient stuff, of
> course)
>
> Buddhism or Vipassana or Mindfulness Meditation most often have you
> follow your breath. Concentration, then Mindfulness or Insight. So
> says the Buddha. CRAP says my friend! TM allows you to use Mantras!
> Super-secret-special-ancient-mysterious-TURBO-CHARGED Mantras! You
> almost INSTANTLY get to "the ground of all Being". And you have to go
> thru layers and layers and layers. Oh... and did I mention you have to
> PAY more and more and more money to learn these ancient secrets????
>
> But my way is crap. HIS way is better!
>
> So go ahead. Tell me your way.
It's the middle one, eightfold. You say you've tried it, didn't like
it, but instead found out how important the present moment at this
very spot is, because enlightenment is right there. I say, hey,
sounds just like the way my teacher says practice should be, here and
now, not focused on some future fantasy.
Have you considered the beneficial effect of all the practice you did
previously, which brought you to the point where you are now, to the
position where you can claim "there's nothing to be done..."? After
all, you didn't clean the metaphorical slate when you stopped doing
mindfulness, vipassana, TM, and figured out the importance of the
present, the already enlightened nature of phenomena. I suspect all
that training did pay off after all. This is great, and it inspires a
lot of confidence in me.
The downside of your argument is how you discourage other people from
following your actual path, and propose a "shortcut" they simply are
not equipped to take, and which you didn't take either, because you,
too, were un-equipped at the time.
> Let me summarize it for you. MonkeyMind says, "My way is better
> because blaa, blaa, blaa... blaaa...... blaaa...... blaaa......
> etc.... etc... etc.... SO THERE."
Right! That's why it's called the monkey mind, after all. :)
(You can also call my conventional, "little" me Florian, if you like)
> Do you know what that sounds like?
>
> ME!
>
> And my friend!
>
> We all have our favorite ways. Our favorite method. My way is better
> than YOU way, Naa Naaaa Na NAAA NAAA NAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
>
> Welcome to the TRAP!
Dukkha the Buddha called it. It certainly doesn't satisfy.
> What I just described is yet ANOTHER one of the INFINITE ego traps. A
> trap in the mind.
>
> I know what you must do to become enlightened. I am better than you!
> WOO hoo!!! Look at me! LOOK AT ME!!!!
>
> As long as you believe there IS a you (small you, mind, ego), then you
> will not recognize the fact that you ARE enlightened right now. YOU is
> everything. You are NOT the body, you are NOT the mind.
>
> Giving up the most IMPORTANT beliefs that 'you' have will in fact
> spontaneously lead to Enlightenment.
>
> That is the trap you must get out of, and any and all DOING to TRY to
> get out of the trap keeps you in the trap!!! Welcome to the greatest
> paradox ever.
>
> NOW STOP PLAYING AND GET OUT OF IT... RIGHT NOW.
Again, you did all these practices before you got to the position from
which you're yelling at me now. You claim they weren't necessary, but
all I can see is you yourself didn't do it the way you propose we do
it.
Cheers,
Florian
--
Every man passes out of life as if he had just been born.
-- Epicurus (Vatican Sayings 60)
