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Author: Monkey MindMonkey Mind Date: Aug 4, 2008 13:09
Chade newsguy.com> writes:
> On 3 Aug, 22:05, monkeym...@hactrn.ch (Monkey Mind) wrote:
>>
>>
>> No. You'll gain certain skills, changing what you already are, from
>> someone with little concentration skills to someone with lots, at
>> least.
>>
>
> While a certain amount of concentration is beneficial the best ways to
> build 'mental muscle', although they can also be called meditation,
> are not usually the most insightful in the long run.
True. But you're almost guaranteed to improve your concentration, if
nothing else, by practicing meditation. That's what I meant by "at
least".
>> Practicing to read and write changed you from someone who couldn't
>> read or write to someone who can. It didn't change the form of the
>> letters you see through your eyes, of course. The words...
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Author: ChadeChade Date: Aug 4, 2008 13:52
On 4 Aug, 21:09, monkeym...@hactrn.ch (Monkey Mind) wrote:
> Chade newsguy.com> writes:>> On 3 Aug, 22:05, monkeym...@hactrn.ch (Monkey Mind) wrote:
>
>
>>> Practicing to read and write changed you from someone who couldn't
>>> read or write to someone who can. It didn't change the form of the
>>> letters you see through your eyes, of course. The words were already
>>> there before you learned to read them. You could already see them. But
>>> your school teachers didn't tell you, "the words are already there,
>>> you don't have to do anything about them", because while true, it
>>> wouldn't have helped you to read them.
>
>>> Now my little daughter is learning to read, and it's *hard* *work* for
>>> her. And sometimes, she tries to cheat when reading: she remembers a
>>> sentence from before, and points at the words, saying them, but
>>> one-off because she missed a word or remembers incorrectly. Just like
>>> many members of the "nothing to achieve"-crowd repeating after their
>>> teachers, but one-off, because they can't be bothered to do their
>>> homework. ...
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Author: mikamika Date: Aug 4, 2008 14:57
On Aug 4, 1:52Â pm, Chade wrote:
> On 4 Aug, 21:09, (Monkey Mind) wrote:
>
>> I think I see what you mean, but there have been more sophisticated
>> "personal development" models even in the Buddha's time, for example
>> the "four bases of success/power", the iddhipada.
Interesting. When I first read "the four bases of success/power" I
thought of the following, "The Four Agreements" by don Miguel Ruiz:
1. Be Impeccable With Your Word
Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to
speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of
your word in the direction of truth and love.
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Author: Monkey MindMonkey Mind Date: Aug 5, 2008 02:13
Chade newsguy.com> writes:
> On 4 Aug, 21:09, monkeym...@hactrn.ch (Monkey Mind) wrote:
>> Chade newsguy.com> writes:
>>>>> I think meditating should simply be viewed as an end in it's
>>> self. I meditate because I meditate. If you treat meditation as
>>> work to try to achieve something, such as enlightenment, you are
>>> imposing your flawed expectations on the experience, distorting
>>> it, rather than experiencing it directly.
>>
>> I think I see what you mean, but there have been more sophisticated
>> "personal development" models even in the Buddha's time, for
>> example the "four bases of success/power", the iddhipada.
>>
That's what I had in mind.
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Author: ato_zeeato_zee Date: Aug 5, 2008 02:39
> But the main point I take from all this is that there really is
> something to work toward, progress to be made, skills to be honed and
> so on: that the present taboo on goal-oriented practice is more likely
> a fashion trend than a fundamental insight.
Pathworking, as a guided meditation, can in magical terms be
regarded as a goal oriented tool.
Magic has many methods and tools, meditation is just one
of them, you paracice using them, sometimes get a result.
You learn from your successes, and from your mistakes.
If it works for you, use it.
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Author: mikamika Date: Aug 5, 2008 10:51
>
> Pathworking, as a guided meditation, can in magical terms be
> regarded as a goal oriented tool.
How exactly can a tool be "goal oriented"?
A tool has no "orientation" other than to do what it was designed to
do when used properly. Any "goal" is in the intention of the person
who uses that tool.
> Magic has many methods and tools, meditation is just one
> of them, you paracice using them, sometimes get a result.
> You learn from your successes, and from your mistakes.
> If it works for you, use it.
That's more like it.
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Author: ato_zeeato_zee Date: Aug 5, 2008 11:42
> How exactly can a tool be "goal oriented"?
A tool can have a specific purpose, in fact, most tools
have a specific purpose. Making grooves in wood is
a good example. In this case the goal is to make
grooves in wood, and the tool is goal oriented, it
helps to achieve that very specific goal.
It's not much good for many other goals.
My reference to pathworking was to point out
that it is a good tool for achieving magical
skills, however you define them, or believe
in them.
If it works for you, use it.
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Author: mikamika Date: Aug 5, 2008 12:26
>> How exactly can a tool be "goal oriented"?
>
> A tool can have a specific purpose, in fact, most tools
> have a specific purpose.
I am making a distinction between being designed for a specific
purpose and being "goal oriented". The tool does not "contain" an
inherent goal regardless of what it was designed to do, the *user* of
the tool applies it to a particular goal.
> Making grooves in wood is
> a good example. In this case the goal is to make
> grooves in wood, and the tool is goal oriented, it
> helps to achieve that very specific goal.
OK, making grooves in wood: I can do that with a screwdriver, a saw,
an axe, a router, a lathe, a box cutter, etc, even a ballpoint pen.
If you want to use the tool that best suits your purposes, you need to
clearly define your intention, *you the user*. The tool doesn't know
what to do just because it was made to do some particular thing.
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Author: ato_zeeato_zee Date: Aug 6, 2008 12:33
> OK, making grooves in wood: I can do that with a screwdriver, a saw,
> an axe, a router, a lathe, a box cutter, etc, even a ballpoint pen.
And a right mess you would make of it.
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Author: mikamika Date: Aug 6, 2008 12:45
>> OK, making grooves in wood: Â I can do that with a screwdriver, a saw,
>> an axe, a router, a lathe, a box cutter, etc, even a ballpoint pen.
>
> And a right mess you would make of it.
So? You didn't specify that not making a mess was part of your
intention. You simply said "making grooves in wood".
This is not as off-topic as it seems. The more specific, detailed and
clear your intention, the more likely you are to actually accomplish
it. If you are vague or confused, your work is going to end up
sloppy, unfinished, misdirected or whatever. The tool isn't going to
just read your mind and do what you want for you.
You could meditate every day for the rest of your life yet come no
closer to any kind of enlightenment than you are today.
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