> In this, the last chapter of "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism",
> Trungpa addresses for the first time the aspect of Buddhism that is of,
> perhaps, the most interest to magicians,the concept of tantra.
>
> Trungpa says, "Finally we reach the tenth and last stage of the Bodhisattva
> Path: the death of shunyata and the birth into 'luminosity'.  Shunyata as an
> experience falls away, exposing the luminous quality of form.  Prajna
> transforms into jnana or 'wisdom'.  The powerful jolt of the vajra-like
> samadhi is necessry to bring the bodhisattva into the state of being wisdom
> instead of knowing wisdom. This is the moment of bodhi, or 'awake', the
> entrance into Tantra."
>
> The basis of Tantra is working with energy, "that which aides in the heart
> of all beings, self-existing simplicity, that which sustains wisdom.  This
> indestructible essence is the energy of great joy; it is all-pervasive, like
> space.  This is the dharma body of non-dwelling" according to the Tantra of
> Vajramala.
>
> As I mentioned in a comment on the last chapter, I see the process as an ...

> In this, the last chapter of "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism",
> Trungpa addresses for the first time the aspect of Buddhism that is of,
> perhaps, the most interest to magicians,the concept of...

> "Tom" comcast.net> writes:

>> In this, the last chapter of "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism",
>> Trungpa addresses for the first time the aspect of Buddhism that is of,
>> perhaps, the most interest to magicians,the concept of tantra.

>

>> Trungpa says, "Finally we reach the tenth and last stage of the Bodhisattva
>> Path: the death of shunyata and the birth into 'luminosity'.  Shunyata as an
>> experience falls away, exposing the luminous quality of form.  Prajna
>> transforms into jnana or 'wisdom'.  The powerful jolt of the vajra-like
>> samadhi is necessry to bring the bodhisattva into the state of being wisdom
>> instead of knowing wisdom. This is the moment of bodhi, or 'awake', the
>> entrance into Tantra."

>

>> The basis of Tantra is working with energy, "that which aides in the heart
>> of all beings, self-existing simplicity, that which sustains wisdom.  This
>> indestructible essence is the energy of great joy; it is all-pervasive, like
>> space.  This is the dharma body of non-dwelling" according to the Tantra of
>> Vajramala.

> ...

> On 16 Mar, 16:42, monkeym...@hactrn.ch (Monkey Mind) wrote:

>> "Tom" comcast.net> writes:

>>> The questions at the end of the chapter give us some idea of the
>>> overall formula of the spiritual path of Tibetan Buddhism.

>>

>>> Opening, surrender.
>>> Emptying, shunyata.
>>> Integration, tantra.

>>
>> The last bit, integration, is interesting and important.  Awakening
>> will not automatically solve the mundane problems we have.

>
> I agree - the last bit, integration is interesting. However - imagine
> that you become fully integrated, and still you stub your toe, still
> you make an ass of yourself.

> The Speaking Clock live.co.uk> writes:
>

>> On 16 Mar, 16:42, monkeym...@hactrn.ch (Monkey Mind) wrote:

>>> "Tom" comcast.net> writes:

>
>
>

>>>> The questions at the end of the chapter give us some idea of the
>>>> overall formula of the spiritual path of Tibetan Buddhism.

>

>>>> Opening, surrender.
>>>> Emptying, shunyata.
>>>> Integration, tantra.

>

>>> The last bit, integration, is interesting and important.  Awakening
>>> will not automatically solve the mundane problems we have.

>

>> I agree - the last bit, integration is interesting.  However - imagine
>> that you become fully integrated, and still you stub your toe, still ...

>
> Interesting. In many Theravada Buddhist schools it is held that the
> pure high concentration states, the samatha jhanas, while they are the
> gateway to the psychic powers, should be developed after awakening,
> because they can so easily be mistaken for the goal. Some
> concentration is necessary for insight practice (developing
> wisdom/prajna), but the high concentration attainments have nothing to
> do with insight, unless they are used as an object for insight
> practice.

> "Monkey Mind" wrote in message
> news:frjf59$v7e$1@news.albasani.net...

>>
>> Interesting. In many Theravada Buddhist schools it is held that the
>> pure high concentration states, the samatha jhanas, while they are the
>> gateway to the psychic powers, should be developed after awakening,
>> because they can so easily be mistaken for the goal. Some
>> concentration is necessary for insight practice (developing
>> wisdom/prajna), but the high concentration attainments have nothing to
>> do with insight, unless they are used as an object for insight
>> practice.

>
> I think that this is because there really aren't any "psychic powers"
> to develop.

> "Tom" comcast.net> writes:
>

>>
>> Where those on a traditional spiritual path may be working from a
>> roadmap, magicians often explore by doing their own trailblazing. I
>> think this is a quality of shamanism, in contrast to priesthood, as
>> Joseph Campbell discussed them in "The Masks of God". The follower of
>> a traditional spiritual path, a "religion", walks a path that is laid
>> out in advance and the result is expected to be the same one that
>> others get. He holds an office and the journey is not really about
>> him at all. The shaman, on the other hand, has a unique relationship
>> with the spiritual and where or how the path will end is entirely
>> idiosyncratic.
>>
>> Magicians tend to use the methods of religion but approach them with
>> the attitudes of shamans.

>
> Interesting distinction. Where would you place people like the Jewish ...

>
> I agree - the last bit, integration is interesting. However - imagine

> that you become fully integrated,

> and still you stub your toe,

> still you make an ass of yourself.

>What is left to do then?

> Magicians have the Magister Templi grade where they surrender the self
> to the SELF (to quote Regardie).

> I just had an absurd mental picture of a Magister Templi aspirant
> preparing to polevault an dark chasm.