On Aug 10, 3:56 pm, Rufus Opus
gmail.com> wrote:> On Aug 10, 5:36 pm, Dagon Productions
earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Hmmm... after reading it, it sounds boring and xtrian as all heaven.
>
> Yep, it's Christian as hell... except hell's not Christian. It's a
> metaphor that got blown out of proportion.
>
Hmmm, it seems to me to be the same way as spirits.
> Did I mention you've got to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior for
> grimoire magick to work? I usually skip that part because it shuts
> most folks down at the get-go, and I rarely get a chance to explain
> it's not the evangelical modern Christian "Accept Christ or Bun in
> Hell" I'm talking about, but the Gnostic Christ, or the LOGOS of the
> Corpus Hermeticum, and Lord and Savior doesn't mean Divine Dictator
> whose ass you've got to kiss constantly, it means the Author and
> Finisher, and the guy that points you back to the Monad from which you
> sprang...
>
> I'll bet you quit reading at accept Jesus as Lord and Savior though.
>
I found no such phrase on the page you referred me to.
>>> I've already tried chaos magick, and seen it for what it is.
>
>> Tried it but obviously not very well.
>
> What has Chaos Magick done for you?
>
Personal Insight/growth, material possessions, travel across the
USA, Mexico & Europe. Meeting, working with and becoming
friends with some of my favorite authors/musicians as well as others
that
I found interesting human beings such as William Burroughs and
the UK band Coil, business opportunities and critical success in
journals dedicated to the businesses interests. Not to mention
all the glorious and wildly debaucherous sex with young magicians
... this is without me pursuing them whatsoever... in fact pushing
them away for integrities sake for 12+ months.
>> It is not unlike work I did many many years ago. Does this ritual
>> work whether or not I believe in it?
>
> Yes. The Angels come, and you see them and talk to them. Then the
> really weird shit starts happening.
>
Well, I would hope so after laying out the cash for a pure gold
plate.
>> Heh, one of the slimmest books he ever has had published and
>> there is very little of his actual experience contained therein.
>
> Well, I've read others, somewhere, and some articles, I think, and
> there was this one time, at band camp...
>
Were you one of those that was buggered by Phil?
>> Hmmm... I had not thought of it in terms of comparing with others
>> whatsoever... more along the lines of an enlightenment is a step
>> up a rung on the ladder... if you stop there, the enlightenment
>> stops as there are more rungs to do.
>
>> Is magick about competition to you? All this winning, hierarchy,
>> etc.
>
> No, but the message boards seem to be. So I assumed that's what you
> were implying with the comment.
>
I'm not interested in it.
>> How does it matter how you came to the material as long as
>> you came to the material. While CM may have dumbed down
>> magick for some, it introduced the occult to a different way
>> of approaching magick that has proven effective to many
>> that had previously used other systems.
>
> Great, leave the dumb shit behind and embrace the stuff that blows it
> away.
>
One of the tenets of CM that I do subscribe to.
>> What makes magick work in your opinion... saying the
>> right words, using the correct postures/movements,
>> the symbols utilized, using a particular system, etc.?
>> or is it something underlying these techniques that
>> is the actual technique working?
>
> It's all spirits, from top to bottom. Real, externally conscious, self-
> actualized, self-aware entities with bodies we can't see. Every time
> magick works it is always a spirit. Other interpretations are false.
> I'm right, you're wrong, and that's the end.
>
> Sorry, seriously, I'm not fun to talk to about this subject.
>
Well, it is like talking to a fundamentalist xtrian.
>> You are doing it to convert people. A proselytizer of your one
>> true way.
>
> Expand their horizons a bit, empower the masses, open the doors to
> heaven and hell to all and grant the full authority that comes with
> being human....
>
> What's so wrong with that?
>
You could be leading them into insanity. Do you have a problem
with that?
>>> No, the more I've learned about the nature of the spirits, the better
>>> I've gotten at tailoring the rituals. A year or so ago I did the 7MUSD
>>> ritual. Since then I've learned better techniques from the spirits
>>> themselves.
>
>> Heh, I find it is more along the lines of be careful of what you
>> wish for.
>
> And be specific, but not THAT specific....
>
> It's an art.
>
I agree, which gives creedence to words have power.
>>> Because that's how it's advertised. I believed it did what people who
>>> used it said it did. And it did. How is that getting fucked up?
>
>> You swallow advertising hook, line and sinker? Heh, I've got a
>> bridge to sell you if this is the case.
>
> You mean... you mean... Phil Hine's a liar?!?! I can't trust Peter
> Carroll? And RAW was SERIOUS with the Secret to Power!!!???
>
No, I do not think Phil is a liar but he may have deluded himself in
some ways... as always read, test, keep/discard or reevaluate
and start over again.
Peter... depends on what you are trusting him with. Some of
his theories and writings are pretty wacko and far fetched imho...
and I was initiated by Pete and that was after having a heated
disagreement with him the prior evening.
Heh, I don't think even RAW expected anyone to take him all that
seriously.
>> If it is this simple for you, why don't you just win the lottery
>> and quit your day job?
>
> Yeah, no shit, eh? Tried that. Failed (repeatedly). I still don't get
> why it doesn't work, but it doesn't, and it doesn't work EVERY SINGLE
> TIME.
>
One of the pain in the asses in magick.
>> Ahhhh... the sales pitch, I should have expected this coming.
>
> You think I do this for fun? Argue with boneheads that end up just
> repeating themselves in endless circles for the sheer joy it brings
> me? Heck no! Sooner or later we get around to the hook.
>
Buy one of mine and I'll buy one of yours.
>> I'll stick with the original text.
>
> Yep, it works too.
>
> -R.O.
>
> P.S. It's been fun talking to you in more depth here, your usual one-
> liners paint you as far more stupid than you actually are. I retract
> the short-bus comment I made to Mika in an earlier conversation.
Heh, one has to be careful judging a book by it's cover one never
knows what is inside.
-Douglas
