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Author: ChadeChade Date: Jan 21, 2008 08:19
In the chapter 'Initiation' Trungpa goes on to describe further the
relationship between the student and the guru. Trungpa translates the
sanskrit word "abhisheka" as "sprinkle", "pour" and "anointment".
Basically, he sees initiation as the opening up to a guru.
"if there is pouring, there must be a vessel into which the pouring
can fall. If we really commit ourselves by opening to our spiritual
friend properly, completely, becoming a vessel into which his
communication may fall, then he will also open and initiation will
occur."
Trungpa warns us against selecting a guru by reputation, we are not
joining a club or collecting labels. As well as enhancing our own ego,
beware a guru enhancing *his* own ego through his band of followers.
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Author: Janine StarscreamJanine Starscream Date: Jan 21, 2008 10:58
On Jan 21, 11:19Â am, Chade newsguy.com> wrote:> In the chapter 'Initiation' Trungpa goes on to describe further the
> relationship between the student and the guru. Trungpa translates the
> sanskrit word "abhisheka" as "sprinkle", "pour" and "anointment".
> Basically, he sees initiation as the opening up to a guru.
>
> "if there is pouring, there must be a vessel into which the pouring
> can fall. If we really commit ourselves by opening to our spiritual
> friend properly, completely, becoming a vessel into which his
> communication may fall, then he will also open and initiation will
> occur."
>
> Trungpa warns us against selecting a guru by reputation, we are not
> joining a club or collecting labels. As well as enhancing our own ego,
> beware a guru enhancing *his* own ego through his band of followers.
>
> When we find a guru, Trungpa says, the ego games continue. At one
> stage we try to impress, doing what we think we should, but it never
> quite becomes second nature. Such as involving ourselves with a guru,
> changing our habits, diet and so on. When our actions fail to become ...
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Author: Janine StarscreamJanine Starscream Date: Jan 21, 2008 11:01
On Jan 21, 11:19Â am, Chade newsguy.com> wrote:> In the chapter 'Initiation' Trungpa goes on to describe further the
> relationship between the student and the guru. Trungpa translates the
> sanskrit word "abhisheka" as "sprinkle", "pour" and "anointment".
> Basically, he sees initiation as the opening up to a guru.
>
> "if there is pouring, there must be a vessel into which the pouring
> can fall. If we really commit ourselves by opening to our spiritual
> friend properly, completely, becoming a vessel into which his
> communication may fall, then he will also open and initiation will
> occur."
>
> Trungpa warns us against selecting a guru by reputation, we are not
> joining a club or collecting labels. As well as enhancing our own ego,
> beware a guru enhancing *his* own ego through his band of followers.
>
> When we find a guru, Trungpa says, the ego games continue. At one
> stage we try to impress, doing what we think we should, but it never
> quite becomes second nature. Such as involving ourselves with a guru,
> changing our habits, diet and so on. When our actions fail to become ...
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Author: TomTom Date: Jan 21, 2008 11:22
> In the chapter 'Initiation' Trungpa goes on to describe further the
> relationship between the student and the guru. Trungpa translates the
> sanskrit word "abhisheka" as "sprinkle", "pour" and "anointment".
> Basically, he sees initiation as the opening up to a guru.
As what happens when the student and the guru open together. "The meeting
of two minds". In the mind of the guru are the teachings. In the mind of
the student, who knows? Thus, we tend to see this as a one-way
transmission, but it really isn't. It's just that we have some idea what
the guru is before the opening occurs, but we have no idea what the student
is.
> "if there is pouring, there must be a vessel into which the pouring
> can fall. If we really commit ourselves by opening to our spiritual
> friend properly, completely, becoming a vessel into which his
> communication may fall, then he will also open and initiation will
> occur."
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Author: Erwin HessleErwin Hessle Date: Jan 21, 2008 17:31
On Jan 21, 11:19 am, Chade newsguy.com> wrote:> In the chapter 'Initiation' Trungpa goes on to describe further the
> relationship between the student and the guru. Trungpa translates the
> sanskrit word "abhisheka" as "sprinkle", "pour" and "anointment".
> Basically, he sees initiation as the opening up to a guru.
Horseshit. All this crap about "gurus" is simply obnoxious tripe. I'm
inclined to think that all this talk of it is nothing other than self-
aggrandizement on his own part.
> "if there is pouring, there must be a vessel into which the pouring
> can fall. If we really commit ourselves by opening to our spiritual
> friend properly, completely, becoming a vessel into which his
> communication may fall, then he will also open and initiation will
> occur."
See? He wants you to "become a vessel" for his supposed genius, to
fill your gap with his "communication" stick. Garbage.
> Trungpa warns us against selecting a guru by reputation, we are not
> joining a club or collecting labels. As well as enhancing our own ego,
> beware a guru enhancing *his* own ego through his band of followers.
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Author: Erwin HessleErwin Hessle Date: Jan 21, 2008 17:53
On Jan 21, 2:22 pm, "Tom" comcast.net> wrote:> The image of initiation as the filling of a vessel brings to mind a parallel
> with the imagery of spiritual alchemy. In particular the Mysterium
> Conjunctionis is represented as coitus between the king and queen taking
> place in a laboratory vessel. Thei image is further related to the
> guru-student abhisheka when we consider Trungpa's description of the
> relationship with one's guru as like the relationship with one's lover.
Yeah, if I had a penny for every time I'd heard that old line.
> Again the parallels to the various steps in the process of alchemical
> transformation come to mind.
Yep, that old hooey that tinkering about with the self is going to get
you anywhere at all.
> In the imagery of "crossing the Abyss", we have to give up everything we
> have and everything we are. This includes giving up our sense of being
> special, too.
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Author: TomTom Date: Jan 21, 2008 21:25
> On Jan 21, 2:22 pm, "Tom" comcast.net> wrote:>> The image of initiation as the filling of a vessel brings to mind a
>> parallel
>> with the imagery of spiritual alchemy. In particular the Mysterium
>> Conjunctionis is represented as coitus between the king and queen taking
>> place in a laboratory vessel. Thei image is further related to the
>> guru-student abhisheka when we consider Trungpa's description of the
>> relationship with one's guru as like the relationship with one's lover.
>
> Yeah, if I had a penny for every time I'd heard that old line.
Ah yes, the old "parallels between alchemical and Tibetan Buddhist
symbolism" line. That really gets the chicks hot, boy howdy.
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Author: Monkey MindMonkey Mind Date: Jan 22, 2008 04:52
Chade newsguy.com> writes:
> In the chapter 'Initiation' Trungpa goes on to describe further the
> relationship between the student and the guru. Trungpa translates the
> sanskrit word "abhisheka" as "sprinkle", "pour" and "anointment".
> Basically, he sees initiation as the opening up to a guru.
As far as I know, the initiation ceremony is the first part of the
(threee part) "empowerment", required for tantric practice in Tibetan
Buddhism (the other two parts are being told the practice and how to
perform it).
In Theravada Buddhism, which I know best, this kind of initiation is
unknown, and (as I pointed out in an earlier post) the concept and
role of the guru is not as developed, being rather closer to the
"spiritual friend" concept. For laypeople, there is a ceremony called
"going for refuge and taking the five precepts", which is performed
frequently.
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Author: Erwin HessleErwin Hessle Date: Jan 22, 2008 05:14
On Jan 22, 12:25 am, "Tom" comcast.net> wrote:>> On Jan 21, 2:22 pm, "Tom" comcast.net> wrote:>>> The image of initiation as the filling of a vessel brings to mind a
>>> parallel
>>> with the imagery of spiritual alchemy. In particular the Mysterium
>>> Conjunctionis is represented as coitus between the king and queen taking
>>> place in a laboratory vessel. Thei image is further related to the
>>> guru-student abhisheka when we consider Trungpa's description of the
>>> relationship with one's guru as like the relationship with one's lover.
>
>> Yeah, if I had a penny for every time I'd heard that old...
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Author: Erwin HessleErwin Hessle Date: Jan 22, 2008 05:52
On Jan 22, 7:52 am, monkeym...@hactrn.ch (Monkey Mind) wrote:
> It's a fairly natural process, and just takes time to evolve. At
> first, one wants to "get it right", and this will at one point seem a
> pointless repetition of ritual: even sitting down to meditate. At one
> point, the question starts to loom, "what the hell am I really doing
> this for?" When one lets this question stand, exploring it instead of
> trying to answer it, a sense of spaciousness will open up, making room
> for forther development.
What I think would be great is if people could learn to avoid the
tendency to attach esoteric explanations to otherwise simple
phenomena. This paragraph is maybe half way towards what I'm talking
about.
This "how can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
nonsense; the fact is he *can't* "show you Zen" at all. What he can do
- allegedly, at least - is to help you see Zen for yourself, and in
order to do this you need context. Zen is not the Eiffel Tower;
someone cannot just transport you to a physical location and have you
see it. It's a *way* of perceiving, and in order to perceive in that
way, some kind of "position" has to be build up first.
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