On 3 Apr, 18:35, mika
gmail.com> wrote:> On Apr 3, 8:55 am, "Tom"
comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>>
golden-dawn.com> wrote in message>
>
>>> Tom wrote:
>
>>>> Pretty much everybody who ever did any biographical work on Mathers
>>>> reports
>>>> that Mathers himself said that his marriage was celibate and Moina
>>>> Mathers
>>>> is quoted as saying that she considered sexual relations to be "beastly".
>
>>> Mathers never said this. Please show a direct quotation from Mathers,
>>> not from a mistaken secondary sources. The quote does not exist.
>
>> See below.
>
>>>> So there is some evidence that the Mathers' were celibate.
>
>>> No there is not. Just because you say it is so does not make it so.
>
>> Just because you don't like the evidence does not make it nonexistent.
>> There is indeed evidence, including the letter from Moina Mathers to Annie
>> Horniman on the subject. It is not explicit, of course, since virtually all
>> of those people were so uptight that any discussion of sex involved a great
>> deal of euphemism and circumlocution. So, while you may not *believe* the
>> evidence that Mathers was celibate, that doesn't mean that no evidence
>> suggesting his celibacy exists.
>
>> "I have always chosen as well as SMRD to have nothing whatever to do with
>> any sexual connection-- we have both kept perfectly clean I know, as regards
>> the human, the elemental, and any other thing whatever.
>> I have tried, and I think succeeded, never to allow myself to think of any
>> subject in that direction, and I think I have been pretty well tested,
>> personally as well as from one's own position in the GD, we are competent to
>> give an opinion."
>
>> Further, celibacy was considered quite admirable in the Victorian period and
>> was touted by Theosophists at the time as a very spiritual virtue. So, even
>> if it weren't true, it would not be surprising to hear Moina brag that it
>> was. Again, just because you choose to interpet this statement as meaning
>> something other than the obvious does not mean it isn't evidence. It only
>> means that, for reasons of your own, you don't choose to believe the
>> conclusion most other people have drawn from that evidence.
>
>>> There is, however, substantial evidence to indicate that there has
>>> been teachings regarding spiritual sexuality in the Golden Dawn's
>>> highest grades since the very beginning. This flies in the face of the
>>> fanciful "celibate Mathers" rumors.
>
>> The sublimation of sexual feelings into a symbolic form is not the same as
>> engaging in actual sexual activity.
>
> How sad that the two threads entitled "Sexual Polarity and the Golden
> Dawn" are so freaking boring and unrelated to the topic. Who cares
> what sexual activities Mathers and his wife may or may not have
> engaged in? Does the entire GD path depend on how they expressed
> their sexuality? Is there nothing worthwhile or or even relevant in
> Regardie's big fat GD course book, or any other GD materials, to
> discuss here? Even Dion Fortune has more interesting things to say
> about the subject.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
That's more like it! :)
Let's talk about sex. In trad. GD groups they don't have any sexual
activity as part of the ritual initiation, but there were several
break away groups in the 70's that decided to incorporate sex into the
ritual. These groups still regarded themselves as GD, not Thelma
etc. I don't know why sex was incorporated, and I would like to know
further information about the rationals for this.
