On Jul 24, 9:01Â am, dh@. wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:26:19 -0700 (PDT), mika wrote:
>>On Jul 23, 6:56Â am, dh@. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:08:08 GMT, jesucris...@
netscape.net (marques de sade) wrote:
>>>>On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:03:44 -0100, dh@. wrote:
>
>>>>>>it's easy. i called you on how you were saying there was nothing
>>>>>>wrong with a 6 year old marrying 51 year old muhammed...
>
>>>>> Â Â To make it similar for us the girl would have to be 18,
>>>>>but you probably won't ever get that far with it.
>
>>>>if it was 18 with mohammed, there wouldn't be an issue...
>
>>> Â Â It was obviously the equivalent of 18 with mohammed
>>> so there's no issue with that, as I've pointed out to you
>>> a number of times already.
>
>>It's not exactly "the equivalent" of 18, since there is a significant
>>difference between a pre- and post- pubescent child. Â Instead of
>>trying to create a contemporary analogy to justify or explain marrying
>>off young girls, a better angle would be to simply say what they did
>>conformed to the values and culture of that time and place,
>
> Â Â That's why 18 would be the equivalent today in regards
> to acceptability regardless of the girl's physical maturity.
It is impossible to separate the concept of "acceptability" from the
girl's actual physical maturity. Now, if we were discussing the
difference between, say, a 13 yo and an 18 yo, your statement would be
valid, but in this case the difference between a pre-pubescent and
sexually mature person cannot be dismissed as irrelevant.
>>and then
>>to investigate what informed that culture, why those values existed.
>
> Â Â I have challenged him to try repeatedly and he never
> has. Since he would not I looked into it myself, and that's
> how I learned that the girls father was the first convert to
> Islam. What a great blessing it must have been to the girl's
> father
Sure.
> and maybe even to her.
Not likely. Can you provide an example of a woman claiming it was a
blessing that she was forced to engage in sexual activity and forced
into an arranged marriage at 6 years old?
>>That said, "marques de sade" obviously is incapable of expanding his
>>consciousness beyond the limited cultural/religious context in which
>>he exists. Â It is absolutely pointless to attempt to explain to him
>>how and why his personal beliefs are irrelevant when discussing the
>>practices of a society about which he is completely ignorant.
>
> Â Â It's absurd to think people in Mohammed's society should
> have considered the idea that they may have been wrong
> about the acceptable age for a girl to marry, because someone
> a thousand years later in a part of the world they didn't even
> know existed might consider it to be pedophilia, and apparently
> marques thinks such absurdity.
Well, he's an idiot.
>>>>the whole world witnessed your inability to stand behind your
>>>>assertions... Â clearly you were jiving when you said there was no
>>>>issue with mohammed and aysha...
>
>>> Â Â You're the one saying there was an issue, yet you
>>> can't explain what it might be. What do you think
>>> would be wrong with a man arranging for his daughter
>>> to marry someone who he considers to be one of the
>>> most respectable people who has ever lived, when
>>> she reaches the accepted age for a girl to marry?
>
>>What's wrong with it is that women aren't cattle,
>
> Â Â Speak for yourself.
I speak for all women when I say women aren't cattle and are entitled
to live our own lives as we choose.
Do you think women are equivalent to cattle? Do you, personally,
think it is acceptable to force women into an arranged marriage
regardless of our willingness to be in that marriage? Or, to force
women to breed even if we have no desire to bear children?
>>to be passed around
>>according to their fathers' wishes.
>
> Â Â May be, but they were then,
We still are. I'm not asking if it is or was socially acceptable, I'm
stating that women aren't property, period, regardless of whether or
not we are treated as such, in response to your question:
"What do you think would be wrong with a man arranging for his
daughter to marry someone ... when she reaches the accepted age for a
girl to marry?"
> and for all we know the girl loved the idea.
It is impossible for a child to consent to, let alone love, being
forced into marriage and engaging in sex acts. Children don't have
the mental or emotional maturity to consent.
