Geoff wrote:
> KStahl wrote:
>
>
>>Geez. You want to play the quote game? What makes you think you are
>>any good at it? While Einstein said those things, intellectual
>>honesty would have also required that you include the following
>>quotes from Einstein.
>
>
> And intellectual honesty would lead you to admit that Einstein did not
> believe in an afterlife or any supernatural beings. I have no idea what you
> mean my mystic, but if Einstein was a mystic than so is Dawkins.
>
>
>>"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part
>>limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and
>>feelings as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical
>>delusion of his consciousness. This delusions is a kind of prison for
>>us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few
>>persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this
>>prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living
>>creatures
>>and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this
>>completely, but the striving for such achievement is, in itself, a
>>part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."
>
>
> And this supports your claim that Einstein is a *mystic* how? I have no
> contention with this at all and I hardly consider myself a mystic.
>
>
>>“The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion.
>>Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom
>>this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and
>>lives in a state of fear is a dead man.”
>
>
> Aside from the use of the word "mystic", this really isn't any support
> either.
>
>
>>"True religion is real living; living with all one's soul,
>>with all one's goodness and righteousness."
>
>
> Again, I completely agree with this and find nothing that supports your
> claim that he is a mystic.
>
>
>>"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though
>>nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
>
>
> Ditto.
>
>
>>Once Einstein was asked, by a journalist, 'Mr Einstein, do you believe
>>in God?' The old man leaned forward ... 'No, young man, I do NOT
>>believe in God.' He paused for a moment and then added 'I KNOW there
>>is a God.'
>
>
> Objection, your honor, hearsay. I have shown definitively that Einstein did
> not believe in any personal god.
>
> Objection sustained.
>
>
>>"Man tries to make for himself in the fashion that suits him best a
>>simplified and intelligible picture of the world; he then tries to
>>some extent to substitute this cosmos of his for the world of
>>experience, and thus to overcome it. This is what the painter, the
>>poet, the speculative philosopher, and the natural scientists do,
>>each in his own fashion. Each makes this cosmos and its construction the
>>pivot of his emotional
>>life, in order to find in this way peace and security which he can not
>>find in the narrow whirlpool of personal experience."
>
>
> Um, OK. And your going to provide some quotes that support your claim soon I
> suppose.
>
>
>>"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own
>>hearts."
>
>
> Soon.
>
>
>>"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
>
>
> *snore* Come on.
>
>
>>"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
>>convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe - a
>>spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
>>with our modest powers must feel humble."
>
>
> If this is the meat of your claim then fine. Einstein's "god" was the
> physical laws of the Universe which he thought was the essence and goal of
> science to know.
>
>
>>"There is no logical way to the discovery of elemental laws. There is
>>only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order
>>lying behind the appearance."
>>
>>"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a
>>faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant
>>and has forgotten the gift."
>
>
> Two quotes about intuition.
>
>
>>Of course I realize that won't be enough for you. Your mind is already
>>closed and is no longer teachable for you are not interested in
>>learning anything except your own wisdom. You've even gone so far as
>>to fabricate your own definition of mysticism and then expect
>>everyone to respect your opinion over the hoards of mystics who have
>>existed since the
>>beginning of time.
>
>
> That's a laugh. I have made no claims for "mysticism" and haven't defined
> it. It is you that claimed Einstein was a mystic. I challenged you and you
> never addressed the quotes I provided that quite clearly show that Einstein
> did not believe in afterlife or any anthropomorphic deity.
>
> You provided quotes that show that Einstein was in awe of the Universe, the
> physical laws that guide it, and the human mind that perceives them. If that
> is mysticism, the count me in!
>
>
>>It is sufficient that Einstein's peers and thousands of others
>>considered him to be a mystic.
>
>
> Define mystic. Show that "his peers" and "thousands of others" considered
> him thusly.
>
>
>>You don't get to define mysticism by
>>your own terms if you refuse to participate in the journey of the
>>mystic.
>
>
> But sooner or later, you have to define it.
>
>
>>But that's also why when you dismiss an entry level book such as "The
>>Tao of Physics" you simply are not ready to look beyond that to some
>>of the more meaningful mystic literature.
>
>
> That's fine. You mystics will be good at paving the way for the afterlife or
> whatever it is that you believe in. We secular humanists will be more
> concerned with making this life more livable. Thanks for your help.
>
>
>>I'll even grant that I don't make a very good mystic myself because I
>>allow myself to get involved in silly little exchanges like this. I
>>have more lessons to learn then I can probably learn in this lifetime
>>before I can even scratch the surface on mysticism. Nevertheless, I have
>>at
>>least some understanding about why I stepped out on this path. And
>>despite your rather crass accusation about me being a "believenik" (I
>>think that is the term you used), I can only say that you really don't
>>know what you are talking about and you don't even know why you don't.
>
>
> And you must admit too that you don't know what you are talking about. Or is
> it that all other mystics that believe equally weird but completely
> divergent philosophies are wrong and you are right?
>
>
No two mystics would state their convictions in quite the same way. It
isn't up to me or anyone else to teach you the essence of mysticism. It
is something that you must learn for yourself.
As I noted earlier, this stuff must really bother you since you cannot
just let go and move along. But along the way you also developed this
extremely annoying habit of interspersing your responses and that
somewhat makes you look like a bit of a slow learner right from the
start. But then your whole purpose seems to be intended to be as
irritating as possible. Which tends to indicate that you just are not
very civil. And yes, I know you do it deliberately just to show me that
you are "the boss" - puerile though that may be.
You are the one that introduced the idea of "afterlife" into this topic.
I don't speak of the afterlife. The way I put it is "whatever comes
next". I don't know what that will be and I don't even know if it has
anything to do with the persistence of the soul. I tend to think that
departure from this earthy shell is not the end, but I'm not holding my
hopes out for 90 virgins or anything like that (although a couple nights
with Jessica Alba or Julia Stiles wouldn't be a bad idea if I could work
that out - heck, I'd settle for Jordana Brewster).
You want a definition of mystic? I don't need to provide that. You can
find it for yourself. The first few times you might take the smartass
approach and come up with a definition that befits someone who thinks
they are a know-it-all, but if intellectual honesty ever kicks in you'll
quit the childish approaches for something a bit more realistic. But it
isn't my job to teach you, nor will I.
Now why don't you just run along and play with other mean-spirited
people like yourself. Impress them with your brand of secular humanism
that doesn't allow for any opinions but your own. You'd be far better
off to just ignore me.
