"Nathan W. Collier" <no@way.com> wrote in message news:u4adne8_SfxxoAPVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@bresnan.com... "Newsie" <Blah@blah.blah> wrote in message news:XY3nk.64892$nD.60852@pd7urf1no... To argue for the basic right of self defence you'd have to have opposition to that idea by removing the means by which to defend yourself you are indeed opposing the basic right to self